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Alan Wheeler Inner circle Posting since 2002 with 2038 Posts |
[Master Payne seems to agree with Whit as to the historic separation of performance artists from real magicicians. See Payne's recent lecture: http://vimeo.com/16279580 ]
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH Christian Reflections on Tarot Word Crimes Technology and Faith........Bad Religion |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Take no notice of Payne he thinks we are descended from monkeys.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
I believe real magicians came long before any performing magicians. Perhaps we are descended from the performers but they I believe are descended from the so called real magicians.
mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-15 12:52, mightydog wrote: On what evidence do you base this? Dedi did performance magic for entertainment in the Pharoah's court. Magicians performed for Kubla Khan as entertainers. Exactly when, where and how did the sorcerors and priests pass on their secrets to the performers? What connection does a street performer doing the cups and balls have with magicians and sorcerors? In what way do you think we are connected to them? What do you mean by saying performers descended from real magicians? How? Is mocking and making fun of someone somehow "descending" from them? I can't imagine Merlin helping some montebank with his color-changing handkerchief routine. Quote:
On 2011-01-15 12:52, mightydog wrote: The Nineteenth Century was full of comedy magic. The "Comedians de Mephisto"--LeRoy, Talma and Bosco--were a trio of famous comedy magicians and illusionists. The Davenport Brothers spirit show was considered a "laugh riot." The first production of a bunny from a top hat was meant as a salacious joke. Thurston, Blackstone, Dante, Kellar, and nearly all the other greats had lots of comedy and laughter in their shows--with silly skits, messy egg tricks with kids, a giant round of cheese that would knock people all over the stage, and many humorous and laugh-provoking moments. I think you need to re-read your history of magic. We don't need to guess. The history is there. BTW, I have never heard of Mr Haley. Was he a performer? Maybe his approach to magic didn't work out too well for him. |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
I think people were more concerned more about survival and the the elements around them. What was lightning? where did the thunder come from? Why did people get sick? Magic was the basis for explanations to these things. I thing man at least at first was to concerned with survival and what was happening around him to worry about entertainment. As to exactly when where and how they passed their secrets on to entertainers I do not know. Magic existed long before the Pharaohs and Kubla Khan. I am sure it did not take them long to realize that not only could they control the people but that it was profitable as well. Entertainment paid well.
Louis C. Haley was an obscure Magician and author who wrote in the early 1900's. Fame does not always equate with talent or the lack of it. "We are the descendants of the cups and balls performers of ancient Greece and Rome--" where did the cup and ball performers come from if not from the leagues of serious magicians? They learned from serious magicians their methods how I do not know and turned it to their own advantage. at least in my opinion. mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
Our comedy may be successful with your audience to produce a laugh, but the dignity of your art and yourself, as a magician, suffer in direct proportion to the success of your laugh efforts. That is to say: The more the audience laughs at what you say, the more they look upon you and your art as a thing to laugh at; if what you say degrades in any way yourself, your art or your audience"
forget who said it. what do you think of the statement? mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I don't agree with it at all. I think he is flat wrong, and a bit of a prig as well, unless he simply means, as he said, he is against degrading humor. To say that isn't saying very much, though.
He said "IF the comedy degrades yourself, your audience or your work." That I would agree with. I am against any comedy that degrades yourself your audience or your work, but that is a very small amount of comedy in magic. I can make fun of myself and poke fun at my profession without degrading it. I think the ability to not take offense and to self-deprecate with humor and good will is a sign of strength and confidence. If Haley has a very pompous and dour attitude, in my opinion. "Mirth born of Magic" and "Magic and Merriment" have been themes of the performer magician for centuries. It is usually only the charlatan who fears laughter, not the magician whose mask is always slipping off his face. The sorcerors and magicians of old did not do magic tricks. They used deception and trickery to keep others in their thrall, but they didn't resort much to what you and I would call magic. They used atmosphere, ventriloquism, acting and sometimes some mechanical or chemical feat, but it wasn't for entertainment. It was a con game, like a faked spirit seance, and the idea was to make the spectators truly believe that the charlatan had real powers. The charlatan uses more theater and suspension of disbelief than "proving." Proving usually works against the charlatan's interests. |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
I think I would have to agree with you on that Whit. I think Mr Haley believed any combination of magic and comedy was incompatible. From what I read I think he believed that You could be good at comedy OR magic but not both at the same time. He also believed that anything but a serious attitude to the art of magic was demeaning to the art. I think another point he failed to realize and this is not his fault is that attitudes toward magic and comedy has vastly changed since the 1910"s. I don't think magic is held in high regard like it use to be. When high society gathered for a party and the magician was the guest of honor.
mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I agree with the statement. I think I will adopt the rule; Aim to make the audience cry.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
There is comedy and there is magic. And there is comedy in magic. Is comedy good for magic though? Can you take something serious if you are laughing at it? How many people who book birthday magic shows thing of booking magic at a office party to impress a client? There are some very highly talented comic/magicians. But if magic is to be raised to the level of dramatic art, will comedy do the job? Comedy is a art unto itself as is magic. As the Bible pointed out you can not serve two masters, either you will love one and hate the other or hate the one and love the other. To be the very best do you then need to specialize in one or the other? I have no answers to these questions. But I would be interested in hearing confirming and opposing views.
mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I do magic with comedy. I make my living at it. It seems to work okay. As I said, the 19th Century was filled with comedy magic. Comedy and magic were extremely popular. I don't know why you think that most magic was presented so seriously at that time.
I don't know what you mean by take magic more "serious." Do you want people to believe that the magic is real? |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Right on Whit! If people took magic seriously they would have to start taking their own lives seriously instead of wallowing in deception.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
http://www.romanymagic.com/Downloads/Con......rger.pdf
The Importance of Importance: A conversation with Eugene
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
Good one, Tommy
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
A excellent article Tommy! thanks for posting it. Whit I thought that most magic was of a serious nature because of what I read. Now that I know of these others that you mention I will look them up and read of them also. When I spoke of taking the art of magic serious I did not mean to imply that we should believe that magic is real. Rather I feel we should take magic serious as a art form. If I may give a example. Red Skelton was a veritable Master of the art of comedy. When asked why he was so good. He said he was a student of the art. He took it serious. Studying it, dissecting it piece by piece to see how it worked, Why one thing would be funny and not another. To him comedy was a serious business. I think magic has to be the same with all of us who believe that magic is a art and not just a job. We need to study magic dissecting it learning how to connect with the audience. To convince them that you are a man of amazing abilities not possessed by others. At least for a period of time.
quote from Berger. "Look, if I'm just throwing my magic away or punctuating every moment with a stupid joke, then no-one is going to take it or me seriously." You know Romany, it took me a long time to realise that not all laughs are good laughs. In fact some laughs are very bad. Romany: For example? Some laughs make the audience think that the performer is an idiot or cruelly insensitive to the feelings of his helpers or whatever. But we tend to be hypnotized by laughter and think that all laughs are good for us and our show. But I'm afraid that's not true. Some laughs are very bad indeed." He is not saying all laughs are bad just some. and by that I think he was referring to laughs at the expense of the audience or make a magician look like a buffoon. Comedy magic at you do it Whit is a art form all its own. Not many people can be funny, You have a great talent. I wish I could be naturally funny but I am not. But If one with talent studies it and dissects as Red Skelton did his craft. It can only be for the better. And could become the crown prince of magic comedy. what do you think? mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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mightydog Regular user Michigan now living in the Florida panha 156 Posts |
Whit. Just saw your teaching act. I would have to say had Mr. Haley saw you he might not have wrote what he did. I was thoroughly entertained with your comedic approach to magic. Pop is someone you would like to know better. I am going to watch the other videos as well. Nice work.
mightydog David
Illusion and magic is the same, if it was possible to achieve the impossible by genuine powers then it wouldn’t be impossible and therefore it wouldn’t be magic. That’s why magic is an art; the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
Raphael Benatar mightydog David |
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts |
I always thought that 'taking magic seriously' meant to take the 'doing' of the magic itself seriously no matter what contextual covering, drama, magic, etc. was used. An act is a synthesis of the magic technique involved, which I believe should FOOL folks, and the other components such as patter, pacing, costume, etc.
I look at it the same way that I would use the phrase, "I take my comedy seriously." Which is to say that comedy should make folks laugh no matter what else it does by way of informing or whatever. Best,
Brad Burt
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I don't think we can expect others to take this art seriously if we don't take it seriously ourselves. I have devoted my life to magic. It is a vocation for me.
I am not naturally funny, by the way. I was a very shy kid in high school, a real nerd--Chess Club, Quill & Scroll, drama club--just a little better than audio/video nerd. I had black rimmed glasses, for heaven's sake! I couldn't talk in public well, especially among my classmates. Drama helped a lot. I took theater courses in college. I worked in carnival. I worked on the streets doing magic in New York City. I traveled with a touring improv troupe all over the East Coast, and studied improv acting using Viola Spolin and Grotowski exercises with Robert Leonard. I studied film acting with Allan Rich in Los Angeles. I have learned to create humor through character. I am not someone to make jokes. It is the character's constantly surprising point of view that makes the lines funny. Comedy is more technique than anything else. Anyone can learn to do it. Some will be better at it than others. But the kind of comedy needed in magic is very easy. It is built into the preposterousness of the situation. The magician only has to act as if everything is normal. That is already funny. Look at John Cleese in Monty Python's The Holy Grail. He acted the part seriously, as if it were really happening. He didn't mug or try to be funny. He just reacted to the absurd as if it were normal. The key is acting, and most magicians haven't got a clue how to do it. What I think, MightyDog, is that if you want to learn to be "naturally" funny on stage, you won't have a problem. Just don't be afraid to be bad, and be bad for as long as you and your loved ones can stand it. You will be great. Try not to do it too fast, and try to be considerate of your family and friends. You needn't bring your work home with you...at least during your loved ones' time. But I think you have the right idea, and I believe you can do it. |
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Loopback Veteran user Lincoln, Nebraska 359 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-16 08:29, tommy wrote: Thanks for posting this Tommy. |
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