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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
I wanted to post this in connection with something commonly said regarding police searches. Many have said, my self included, that "if the police came to my house (or car) and wanted to search, I would let them, I have nothing to hide."
I remember, having a discussion with my father, who works in corrections, about evidence, that could clearly proved someone's guilt, being thrown out because it was found with unlawful searches. I believe we had recently watched an episode of Law and Order in which the issue came up. If I recall correctly, he mentioned how sch restrictions were in place to prevent abuse, and I thought it was silly if it stopped killers from going to jail. I had said that I would be more than willing to allow them to search my house (when I grew up) whenever they wanted if it would keep me safe. I think I was also assuming they would be neat about it, and clean up if they did not find anything, but I was young(er). Any who, I wondered how people felt about a search that was a bit closer to home than, well, your home, uh, I'm sure you'll know what I mean. I am sure many of you have already heard about the back-scatter body imaging devices TSA is using that capture very detailed images of your body, head to toe. Very cool technology, IMHO. They are now offering an alternative for those who do not want their bodies viewed in such detail. One might find that invasive you know. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arch......e/65390/
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I'm fine with it. It's a sad reality we live in, where this kind of thing is necessary. I loved stepping off of an airplane when I was little, seeing my grandparents standing right at the gate to say hello. Even those days are now gone.
That said, I, like you, feel that I have nothing to hide, and so I happily consent to inspections at the airport. Do I enjoy it? No. Do I think it's necessary? Absolutely. Until someone can come up with a method that's 100% fool proof (if such a thing even exists,) I think these kind of measures are necessary. I'll take a few seconds of an uncomfortable pat down with a stranger I'm probably never going to see again anyway. Anyone that thinks we should be doing LESS to keep the skies safe doesn't read the news. Unfortunate, but that's the state of affairs these days. I also feel like the author of the article in The Atlantic may have gone slightly overboard in the way he referred to the new scanners. I've seen the images they produce, and they are blurry at best, and it was nearly impossible to tell the man from the woman.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Haha, great comedic writer. Non fiction at that! You could not make that stuff up! Read it...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
Pat downs are overrated.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
It's a total violation of the 4th amendment and should be removed!!
Some people do not have a problem standing in front of people in your digital nakedness, but others do. And in the USA, we are supposed to have rights not to be forced to do it. And you can't blame this on Obama. Randi |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-02 14:05, Andrewzuber wrote: You must not have been looking at the same images I have. If they were that blurry, and you could not tell the difference between men and women, they probably wouldn't be much good for seeing what the person had on them. Also, if you are watching the news and actually thinking this is "absolutely" necessary, I think you are buying into the sensationalizing a bit too much. It's no different than buying into any craze suggesting gangs are running rampant shooting people, when actual violent crime rates are down, and have had a good steady decrease since the early 90s.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-02 14:47, randirain wrote: One could argue that you aren't "forced" to do it, as you could just choose not to fly. However, the problem comes from the fact that it is a government agency that is dictating how private businesses must be run, explicitly pertaining to something addressed in the constitution. The airlines do not have a choice it would seem.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
Yes.. if it was something ran by the airline companies, then you could just choose not to use certain companies.
Or, you could just start your own company and not use these things. That would be freedom. But it's not the companies, it's the government. And there for your rights are being violated. You can't always choose not to fly, and we have a right to fly. It is a violation of privacy and is an illegal act that the government is getting away with. Randi |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
ANY TIME the government (ANY government) has been given an investigative or surveillance power, that power has been abused almost immediately.
Consider the "personal dirty secrets" files amassed by the FBI under J Edgar Hoover, files that had the decent as well as the shady in official Washington cowering in fear lest their private lives be shouted from the housetops. Consider the laws allowing police to investigate what you do in the bedroom, and with whom (there are those even today who accuse the Supreme Court of "judicial activism" for striking down those laws) Consider the Nixon-era practice of sending provocateurs into the meetings of activist groups, and sending thugs to break into the records of the psychiatrists of his "enemies". |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
What would people suggest?
It should be noted (though I'm not arguing this is the case) that certain things are done in regards to flying to make passengers "feel" safer. When Boeing was testing the 777 back in the 90s, they made the cargo doors with a quieter seal, so that when they closed, passengers above wouldn't hear or feel it. Basically, it was an effort to lessen noises and such, and make for a more comfortable experience. After getting feedback, Boeing scrapped the idea because they discovered that passengers found that noise to actually be comforting - they weren't sitting there, wondering if a cargo door had been left open. It's not a conscious thing that most of us think about when we fly, but subconsciously, it's reassuring hearing and feeling that door closing beneath you. That's how I feel about security in airports. Am I in favor of cavity searches for everyone? No. But I know it makes me feel safer, knowing everyone has to go through the process. Call it cosmetic if you want, but it puts my mind just a little bit more at ease. I'm curious what other people would suggest. Checking everyone's identity seems like a good idea, but to terrorists who really want to pull something impressive off, a fake ID and stolen identity can't be all that far out of reach. It does seem like a good (and less invasive) method, but I certainly see flaws in that plan also. As for the scanner images I saw, they were printed in a story in the Seattle Times a few months back, when Seattle was getting the scanners installed. I'd have to go back to look at the source more carefully, but the particular ones I saw weren't offensive; it was really just a vague form of the human body.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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balducci Loyal user Canada 227 Posts |
I'm still amazed whenever I travel by air to the U.S., and the nice people of your TSA want to remove and inspect my shoes. Is that a widespread fetish in the U.S.?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
I think what's really funny is how "security" has become such an industry here, an industry that's profiting from public money.
Those scanners are made by profit-making companies, just like the TSA uniforms, the little lights that scan your driver's license, the X-ray machines, the conveyors, the signs, the bollards, and everything else there. Not long ago, we stopped by a display put on by local sheriff's department, where they had a SWAT team, the bomb squad, and several other units. Every single weapon, device, robot, truck, and so forth were all made by profit-making companies. Yet every single piece was bought with public money. I often think I should invent something -- say a gun that can shoot around a corner -- and then go out and convince every security agency in the country that they should buy it because it would be dangerous for their staffs, and irresponsible for the agencies, not to buy it. A little fearmongering planted here and there, a little PR, and I could probably make a fortune. At public expense.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
I like the pat downs. I look forward to them.
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critter Inner circle Spokane, WA 2653 Posts |
I would, but there's some homely security folk at my airport. The guy that searched me last time I went to Vegas looked just like Ned Flanders.
"Hiedely Get your Diddly hand out of there!"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-02 15:16, randirain wrote: I agree in SOOOOO many ways. "Yes.. if it was something ran by the airline companies, then you could just choose not to use certain companies. Or, you could just start your own company and not use these things. That would be freedom." Sums up pretty much all of my thoughts on government and capitalism. The only thing I disagree with is this: "You can't always choose not to fly, and we have a right to fly." We do not have a "right" to fly, in the same way we don't have a "right" to ride on a train as, unless it is a train or plane we own ourselves, this requires the actions of another. We cannot have a "right" to anything that requires someone else to do something for us to exercise that right. The same way we do not have a "right" to health care. That would be to say we have a "right" to the labours of doctors, which are also the result of the years of schooling they spent time and money (thus work) on completing.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
Quote:
What would people suggest? A very delicate balance. No amount of security is ever going to stop everything. There is always going to be a danger. Metal detectors are not really all that helpful. You can go to any spy store and buy a plastic knife that is hidden in a hair comb. It doesn't go off on the detectors and on x-ray it looks like a comb. You can also buy plastic resin guns, and I am sure at least at some point there will be plastic bullets. All they need to do is check your identity and a basic check. They can keep the metal detector, because it's practically useless any way. But no need to take away basic freedoms. People might say they don't mind being scanned... But I guess they are the people that don't have to wear adult diapers.. Or have physical deformities.. or just don't care that their 12 year old daughter is being looked at naked.. Some of us do and don't think the minimal amount of security this provides is worth the trade off. Delicate balance is the only answer. Randi |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-02 15:29, rossmacrae wrote: "Consider the Nixon-era practice of sending provocateurs into the meetings of activist groups, . . . " I'm sorry, but I nearly LOLed at "Nixon-era." No way criticizing you here. Just wondering if people really think this sort of thing is NOT still being done by government?
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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gdw Inner circle 4884 Posts |
Quote:
On 2010-11-02 15:44, George Ledo wrote: Another one of the very reasons I take issue with governments doing the many things they do. I also love how people try to blame the companies making money off of it. Blaming the private security companies etc, meanwhile they would not have anywhere near the profits without government contracts. The company formerly known as Blackwater was reported to have had 90% of their income coming from the american government.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."
I won't forget you Robert. |
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randirain Inner circle Fort Worth, TX 1650 Posts |
"We do not have a "right" to fly, in the same way we don't have a "right" to ride on a train as, unless it is a train or plane we own ourselves, this requires the actions of another."
The way I see it... Flying is legal, and it can be offered by people for people... There for we do have the right to fly and there for government doesn't have the right to enforce illegal practices on it. Randi |
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