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J.G. the magnificent Special user Griffith Indiana 886 Posts 
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On 2010-11-15 22:31, Jonathan Townsend wrote: They are to be focused on the hand supposedly containing the object because that is the whole point. The object wouldn't vanish if they didn't think their was something their in the first place. I'm not saying they need to burn it but at least enough to have the right mindset and not look in the wrong direction. Quote:
On 2010-11-16 08:33, funsway wrote: Magic has become more natural for me especially in basic slights like I am talking about. My post is not because it is difficult for me. I just think it is good to have things perfect. This is because you occasionally run into more perceptive people. Those people may turn out to be hecklers that shout other hand to everybody. Also to be able to do them perfectly enables fair slights on bad days. We all have had times when we are nervous or have a lot on our mind. Thus affecting our performance. I love your last bit though I do believe time match up is imparative. Same thing anything like lifting if you are going to do a double lift. Then you should always lift the cards in such a manner. Posted: Nov 16, 2010 12:50pm A lot of people have seemed confused by my intentions and questions of the post. Sorry about that it is one of those things that you can think better than say. I almost didn't post it in the first place because I was afraid of confusion. Writing it down really helped my thoughts though. Quote:
On 2010-11-16 12:46, J.G. the magnificent wrote: I just reread my post and in one part I said. To go a bit more or less off topic when doing a shovel pass I find the finger palm more obvious but the basic slight more convincing with it. If I use the classic palm the slight being awkward but hand appearing emptier. Funsway if you think slights are weird or awkward for me because I said. (If I use the classic palm the slight being awkward) I didn't mean it feels awkward but rather looks it. I think a finger palm looks smoother aside from the fingers being closed. I just thought though, that should not be a problem. I know you can direct their minds off that with a good routine and patter. Realizing this it occurred to me I use closed fingers all the time with my sponge balls. I fool everyone and there are countless slights and devises involving closed fingers. I was over thinking things. Posted: Nov 16, 2010 1:09pm Everyone has posted many great replies. After reading and thinking about my post. I think my real question should be. Depending on the situations how do you know whether to supposedly place or retrieve an object? Which appears more natural in which situation? Quote:
On 2010-11-04 13:56, funsway wrote: There are more books on method but less on basic proper terms. I think this is why the world is full of confused magicians like me. Is their a dictionary full of magic terms? If not I should start one. Already have a 6 page or so document. Accumulated from various books and put in my own words. Not everything but enough for when I started out.
Jeremy Gates
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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"Metaphysics- A science dealing with mechanical or psychological phenomena due to forces which seem to be intelligent, or to unknown powers, latent in human intelligence."
Now that's a paranormal definition if I ever read one. Would you do the rest like that maybe we could have an Ambrose Bierce type Magic Dictionary. 
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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On 2010-11-16 13:09, J.G. the magnificent wrote: It's honestly going to depend upon the situation. It's not like there's only a couple out there. Imagine this situation. Your friend's on vacation, and he left you a key to let yourself into his house so you could feed his cat. It's sitting in your right pocket, keyhole's on the left side of the door. How are you going to get that key into position from the right pocket over to the keyhole, and then how are you going to get it back? Are you going to use transfers or takes or what? Are you going to even bother bringing it from one hand to the other? I can't answer that question for you, because chances are you're going to do what's natural for you without even thinking about it. The actions are going to be a result of unconscious actions. So, when defining your sleight choreography, turn your brain off when it comes to sleights, and figure out what's a natural sequence of actions for you to do, assuming you really had powers and were able to do the effect? Once you've figured that out, it's generally easy to plug the sleights in as needed to execute the trick, with minimal alteration to the original "Mind Movie".
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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J.G. the magnificent Special user Griffith Indiana 886 Posts
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On 2010-11-16 18:41, Andrew Musgrave wrote: Very good advice also I suppose it would depend on if a hand is concealing something to be unseen.
Jeremy Gates
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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On 2010-11-16 18:54, J.G. the magnificent wrote: You're still thinking method-first!
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Lawrence O Inner circle French Riviera 6811 Posts
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I second your statement Andrew
Magic is the art of emotionally sharing live impossible situations
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
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Method should ONLY and ALWAYS be subservient to the EFFECT desired. Thus the 'effect' should always be well defined in the mind of the performer.
Next, 'effect' should always simply appear to happen in a manner, hopefully, that overshadows any observed method. 'Misdirection' as a tool is used always to obscure some part or whole of the method. If a spectator says, "Wow, look at that clever misdirection...." Then the enterprise is suspect from the beginning. This all leads to the 'when' question. As noted above by others you must know why you would 'place' or 'retrieve' in the context of your routine. The routine is driven by the 'effect' you wish to manifest. Thus, for instance, if the effect that I wish to bring forth is the vanish of a coin I have before me a huge variety of method. The cleaner the method the more magical will be the vanish. You can theorize from greatest possible effect to least thus: One, place coin in full view and never obscure or cover it. It vanishes away either instantly or by degree is fades away. Two, the coin is placed in full view and a small piece of paper is placed over it. Spectator removes paper to find the coin has vanished. And, so on and on however one would order the various effect, etc. Once the actual effect has been decide upon one must come up with method. How close can one come to the desired effect? All these considerations and more follow from effect to method to effect as it is eventually produced. Thus.... I roll up my sleeves and display a coin at the tips of my right fingers. I openly place the coin into my left hand. The left hand closes over the coin. My attention follows the coin INTO MY LEFT HAND.....not misdirecting, but DIRECTING the attention there. The L.H. opens, the coin is seen to be gone, the conclusion if only for a moment of time is that the coin has magically vanished. Now, note the chance of MISDIRECTION inherent in the routine just above. As the L.H. opens to display the vanish of the coin.....the R.H. now has all the time needed to ditch the coin still secreted therein! Thus the final EFFECT derived becomes the misdirection for the clean up allowing now both hands to be seen empty and thus push the magical nature of the vanish one step further. All best,
Brad Burt
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J.G. the magnificent Special user Griffith Indiana 886 Posts
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I enjoyed that thank you Brad.
Jeremy Gates
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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As a method, misdirection is like "invisible paint" - there is no such thing. We can't paint a thing "invisible" - but instead seek to find other places (physical or mental) to direct audience attention, or as theater folks call it "throw focus" on what's important.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
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Let's reverse the above statement: As a method, "throwing focus" is like "invisible paint" - there is no such thing. We can't paint a thing "invisible" - but instead seek to find other places (physical or mental) to direct audience attention, or as Magic folks call it "Misdirection" 'towards' what's important and away from what we wish to be ignored.
Best,
Brad Burt
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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I'd trust the language used by an acquaintance who directs when discussing the matter. He was working in local theater at the time - with much contact with both the academics in the field and folks working on Broadway at the time as he was doing writing his doctoral dissertation. How about we pretend that hundreds of years of work by professionals in the larger scope of the theatrical arts have some ideas and language which we might use to our profit and try some of it out for a while - leaving the problem of new terms for where we are truly on our own in this craft? Hmmm?
The term "throwing focus" also indirectly implies ways in which one can cue an audience to move their focus of attention where desired by way of lighting, sound, character and prop movement (large action), intonation, direction of character's gaze onstage etc. Again, in this case it's not about "my" opinion but rather what I've been given by those who direct. Notice that's not those who move or build props, sets, lighting, write or act, but those who direct. Not written from a deKolta armchair. Instead let's give thanks to the theater folks for their help to date and leaving the door open for this wayward craft.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts
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On 2010-11-25 10:23, Brad Burt wrote: Brad, We all know what you mean by "misdirection." Since the beginning, we have had great magicians, lousy magicians, and everything in between, with no better terminology to serve as a guide. Some have embraced a notion of magic craft 'becoming part of mainstream theater,' as if it is not already. Ironically, it is often those who do not perform for a living who press the point. I am coming to the view that we need look no farther than our own Guides in our own craft to find expressive synonyms, many of whom Etienne has eloquently named and detailed elsewhere.
Michael Kamen
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
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Since I imbue the word "Misdirection" with all the attributes Mr. Townsend says attend the phrase, "throwing focus", I guess the question, at least for me, is whether the magic craft will be benefited by tossing the one in favor of the other?
The only argument for tossing away hundreds of years of usage by magicians whether they are good, bad or just ugly is that it will in some sense enhance what we do. And, I do believe that to be the reasoning behind the last two posts. 'Misdirection' then, it seems, no longer serves and thus 'throwing focus' which has the imprimatur of the 'legitimate' theater must take it's place. If it's seriously contended that the magic community should move to the term 'throwing focus' then a serious attempt should be made by the advocate thereof to legitimize it's use and get it 'out there' to the community at large. Otherwise it's mere rhetoric of a Gnostic kind. It's just me, but it would seem far better to attempt to make the term 'misdirection' as fully meaningful to magicians as the phrase 'throwing focus' is to those in theater. Again, I've never, ever thought of 'misdirection' as simplistic as I know that some do think of it. "Hey, look a 747!", the performer yells and attempts to make his steal...... Things can crash, fall over, lighting can change, assistants can come on stage and talk, trip, gesture and on and on and on. Which things admittedly should 'throw the focus' of the audience in the direction desired almost as if it was 'misdirected' there. The very first thing I ever learned in my first logic class was to attempt to determine whether or not what was being argued was in fact the same thing? If I missed and I probably did miss it, the compelling reason to change from one term to the other even though they mean exactly the same thing to me the performer then, well, rats! My father worked for ten years at Universal Studios, my sister in law was a producer and director for years with Public Television. One of my best friends was for two seasons the only American in the Royal Shakesp. Company in England. I've been the technical adviser for plays at the Old Globe and the La Jolla Playhouse. I have never once had anyone I worked with in theater have a problem when I used 'misdirection' to get my point across. Perhaps they were just being kind. I think it more likely that they understood that in 'my' craft the word was pretty much synonymous with 'throwing focus' and felt perfectly comfortable with it. Best,
Brad Burt
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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I think there's no reason to lose the term "misdirection". In modern intelligent discourse on the topic, it's come to mean a set of principles rather than a single strategy. Every now and then that needs to be pointed out, but it's better than just substituting terms and failing to understand the spirit of the concept.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Brad, I'm just advocating we direct our efforts at finding interesting things and reasons for audience attention to be where we want it, to take control by way of intent rather than flail in efforts that almost announce "not here please" and for want of congruence can risk announcing that "something just happened".
Where do you want them to be looking? What are you doing to give them something to be interested in? Positive language. Posted: Nov 26, 2010 8:09pm @andrew - for me it's a word that grates in the same way as when performers say what one can easily observe - I will put the ball over here, and in this hand (showing palm open hand) there are two coins. Cringeworthy for me. Maybe Whit could come up with a character that did such things for sensible reasons. For me it's like watching a Rainman impression.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Well, it's worth considering the prospect that misdirection's function really IS to serve as an invisible paint. For a couple of reasons... (a) most of the time we'd leave it out if we could, and as such it's a phenomenon that we're applying to a situation, and (b) spectators are well aware of the concept of misdirection, and might think of it in that manner (if not the exact words of "invisible paint").
The idea of throwing focus is, perhaps, a use of misdirection to misdirect away from the use of misdirection.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Why misdirect a discussion when we have a rich language where other words can be used in place such as cover and distraction? IMHO we get in trouble when we attempt to use a nominalizaion, a process referenced as a noun, in our discussions when there are more descriptive and precise terms which would help us ask for what we want and describe what we do. Trouble? What would you call books that wander around describing what might evolve into a real theory - and two plus generations of this wandering rather than just plain language? Misdirected efforts.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Can you elaborate? Talk of "plain language" could mean a bunch of things. Abstraction of a concrete phenomenon is a natural thing to do if you want to gain the advantage of a strategy without using word-for-word patter and move-for-move choreography.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Brad Burt Inner circle 2675 Posts
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Jonathan: Great! I agree wholeheartedly. Run a magic shop for 30+ years and you see much to cringe about. An example that comes to mind is the horrible and unfortunately well documented concept of doing a French Drop and then pointing inanely at the closed hand with the hand that actually secrets the coin!!! Oh, my.
As I have thought my way through this I can also see why the term 'misdirection' could be construed in a negative sense. I have never looked at it this way, but I can see because of the discussion above how one could easily think it so. My reaction to the word is much like this: Suppose one is a surgeon. Patient comes in and for a consult because they have a tumor that needs extracting. "Hello, doctor, I'm ill." They say. The doctor says, "Please let's not use the word 'ill', it's so negative. Let's say you are 'health challenged! I like to talk about health, not sickness." Potato ... Potaaaato, let's get cuttin'. That said I can now see it as useful to possibly recalibrate our magic language even though the end seems not to be changed at all. But, I'll have to give that some meditation. Thank you. Andrew: I am conflicted on 'a' above. Everything for me focuses upon 'effect'. Excepting a few very odd exceptions I don't care how an effect comes about just that it's the most direct manner possible. If sleights get it done, cool. If I have to use a gimmick or gaff I'll go there. I'll cheat and use a stooge. Sometimes the use of some form of 'misdirection' is just simply the best way to get something done. What I am I think most magicians hate about misdirection is that to certain degree it add chaos to the equation. What IF? Right? What IF they don't fall for the misdirection? You can do a routine a hundred times and have everything work perfectly only to have some stoner see the 'move'. Rats. 'b', now..... unless a person has really had some solid grounding in misdirection a layperson has only the most basic and inchoate notion of what to expect. They are looking for what I think Jonathan is talking about in his post above: Misdirection to coarse, ill thought out and thus so madly executed that it really should cause lightning to strike the offender where they stand. Not 'kill' them, just a warning. Perform for lay folk 6 days a week for years and years and years and you get a idea of what they expect. Mostly I think they expect their pockets to be picked and to be short changed....but, that's a rant posted elsewhere. It is I believe all to the good that lay persons 'think' they know what 'misdirection' is all about, because it leaves them entirely vulnerable to that which is properly applied. All best,
Brad Burt
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Sure, let's go with some examples in text:
When I lift a cup to reveal a ball having appeared underneath I also use the back of the cup to roll the ball forward. The rolling ball serves to motivate other actions, one of which is covered by a hand to hand transfer of the cup to permit my dominant hand to reach for and pick up the ball. During repeats of this sequence I show my hand empty before lifting and kicking the ball forward with the cup. When openly putting a coin in my pocket I use the moment after my hand enters my pocket to shift my attention and the subject of my patter to some object on the table to cover any extra motion that hand might make as I palm an object for use later in routine. To be fair, I'm not much on abstraction and prefer to work from mannerisms and habits which are part of the character and use those to provide cover for other activities as needed in the methods of tricks. This was a source of some amusement for Joe Monti and others as they asked me to repeat my handling of the HPC as each time my hand went up to brush by my lip as if I had some spittle there (or now to figit with my mustache). The same goes for the habit of keeping my hands closed and only showing them in open display when there is specific reason - be it audience convenience or to disarm a suspicion (bad jon doing feints )
Notice that the "M" word was not required in the above text though I'm fine with some calling my harping upon language use in magic a misdirected effort.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Nov 16, 2010 05:38 pm 
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