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Sealegs
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The apparent spread of 'Fiber Optics' as a routine has harmed rope magic more than anything else in the history of rope magic.

I pose this as a point of debate.

To my mind the statement is true in as much that I admit not knowing the entire history of rope magic and other moments in the past when it has been laid low.

However 'Firber Optics' would have served rope magic better if it had never seen the light of day. I say this as I have witnessed, since it's release, many a presentation of the material contained within this routine. It has inevitably ben performed with little or no understanding of performing for a living breathing audience of real people.

I'm a magician who makes his living doing magic and as such probably get to see other magicians, amateur or otherwise, less often than even the most lay of lay audiences. I have seen maybe 5 or 6 versions of this routine performed over the last few years. None of them were any good. None of them enhanced magic or rope magic in any way. None of them were presented as anything other than a series of moves.

I'm not saying that the material contained within the 'Fiber Optics dvd' isn't good strong well presented material. What I am saying is that apparently not enough has been done in that dvd to get across the need to do more than just the moves when presenting a 'magical' rope routine sequence.

The world of magic would have been better served if it had never been produced.

Strangely Tabaray's routine when made avaiable didn't result in the same wave of mindless reproductions of the moves. Maybe this is because the routine itself had an intrinsic artistic quality that put the have a go performers off?

Anyway, I've opened the floodgates so feel free to chop me down.
Neal Austin

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Pete Biro
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I somewhat agree. I really never liked Tabary's routine. Too long to complex and almost impossible for laymen to follow and/or appreciate. I have no experience with Fiber Optics, but am guessing it is much the same.

You take Pat Conways "handling" of the P.N. where you finish with one long "restored rope" and Whit's version "Mongolian Pop Knots." That's more than enough for an audience to digest.

While I do a version of Conway's occasionally, 90% of the time, for laymen, I do the first rope trick I ever PURCHASED... Sterling's Short and Long. It never fails to get laughs and fools.

I did that more than 20 years ago for a family of friends, and to this day the kids, now grownups, still talk about it.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
61magic
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I have to agree with you on this one, Fiber Optics reduced rope magic to a routine of stunts.
Tabary's routine is just that, a routine. Some will like his routine, and some will hate it but it is a complee routine with a beginning a middle and an end.
Fiber Optics as presented on the DVD is a routine (read collection) of stunts (call it a flourish) in the gize of a complete routine.
It does look imnpressive when performed properly but like any flourish it is meant to be nothing more than eye candy.
If someone wants to really learn a rope routine study the Sandsational Rope routine.
Professor J. P. Fawkes
magicians
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I agree for other reasons. Fiber optics bases its entire routine on the back of a very logical and entertaining routine by George Sands. Without that, all you have is acrobatics. The routine mesmerizes magicians who are impressed that bold exposure would be accepted and not seen through. Therefore, fiber optics has a few avante garde handling as an addition to a proven (but nationally unknown) Sands routine.

Let me once again toot my own horn. My dances with ropes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ8JJvmZ1TI
is not quite as acrobatic, but does have a routine and entertainment value along with shock value,(plus all original moves), much like Tabary (who I love).
Don't get me wrong, Fiber Optics has cool moves and has caught on, but I have also suggested that magicians learn Sandsational rope (the base formula for Fiber Opti
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
MikeDes
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Well, for me Fiber Optics is one of the routines my audiences seem to love the most. It gets a great response and I have received a lot of positive comments on it. Blaming a DVD for poor performances is like saying we as performers have no responsibility and that the trick should make us great. Fiber Optics is a tool, it is up to us to create art.
Al Angello
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I believe that bad magicians trying to do the fiber optics moves is what everybody here is talking about.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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Harv
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Quote:
On 2010-11-06 16:27, Al Angello wrote:
I believe that bad magicians trying to do the fiber optics moves is what everybody here is talking about.


I don't think that's what anyone is talking about. As sealegs said in his first post "None of them enhanced magic or rope magic in any way. None of them were presented as anything other than a series of moves." From that statement I took it that there was no presentation involved, not that the moves were done badly. I love both Tabary's FISM routine and Fiber Optics. I have shortened both routines and present Tabary's as he does and tell a story using the shortened Fiber Optics routine.
funsway
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I'm probably the only one, but I've never liked any rope routine with pretend cuts of the rope. I just can't imagine how any lay person finds it magical at all.

same goes for revealing the short piece after initial stretch.

at least pretend that you are pretending to do magic

at least when Ian shifts to a linking rope routine he can't show the short piece.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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magicians
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Quote:
On 2010-11-06 19:07, funsway wrote:
I'm probably the only one, but I've never liked any rope routine with pretend cuts of the rope. I just can't imagine how any lay person finds it magical at all.

same goes for revealing the short piece after initial stretch.

at least pretend that you are pretending to do magic

at least when Ian shifts to a linking rope routine he can't show the short piece.

You can blame "pretend cuts" on Sands, and the revelation of the short piece after the stretch was a big license to reveal. Its almost like the "silk in egg", or "torn and restored paper" where you show the gimmick and do a sucker gag. That small piece released in the manner that it is done, may add confusion, but I am not sure what goes on in the spectators mind. In other words, I can't justify the move as it is not magical, it is just a puzzle.
The small piece used in and out of a knot, is however, mystifying. John Cornelious uses it very well, and so does Tabary and Sands.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Oliver Ross
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In my opinion everything has to do with the evolution of the audience.

Today's people want to be amazed quickly due to television. If someone don't like something on television within 20 secondes (maybe even 10) the person is going to change the channel.

So that's why magic changed aswell, and a lot of the new products (even though Fiber Optics is out since a few years) are a collection of quick flashy visible effects put together in a routine.

After that everything depends on presentation, you don't have to present Fiber Optics silent with music and real fast. Neither you have to tell a story while presenting Tabary's routine, which I think is too long.

Anyway, I think that everybody should at least learn a few classics (C&R Rope, Professors Nightmare, Cups & Balls...) to understand the basics before starting with more avant garde and flourished magic effects, with the goal to enhance the magic. Otherwise they'll miss something. Those basic lessons may help them aswell to judge what is good to show and what is not (exemple the gliding ends in Fiber Optics is pure exposure to me, even though it looks stunning).

Just my thoughts.

Oliver.
funsway
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More than basic -- I think every magician should be able to take a length of strange rope and perform for 20 minutes or so. So, in order to do PN you have to know how to cut the rope the right lengths "on the fly" after doing some other effects. It took me a couple of years but I learned three different methods of accomplishing this. Fun!

The new challenge is methods to show the cut pieces separate after the cut for a C&R. Four methods so far (one of them Ian's) and still looking.

Without the basics this would not be possible.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Woland
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Funsway,

On many levels, I liked your suggestion:

Quote:
I think every magician should be able to take a length of strange rope and perform for 20 minutes or so.


I couldn't do that today, but I am going to set that as a goal.

Agree on the basics, too.

Woland
Pete Biro
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If you want to do 20 minutes with a piece of rope, you better be a really entertaining performer with lots of bits and lines as well as effects that are not confusing and can be understood by the audience.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Al Angello
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Woland
I have two quick shorts cut for you "the Dennis Loomis knot routine plus", combined with a couple moves from Daryl's "expert rope magic", and you should have more than 20 minutes of first class rope magic. All you have to add is the verbal presentation, or suitable music, and the necessary body movements.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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Bill Hegbli
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Fiber Optics would have never been the success it was, if magicians would hold to the code of IBM and SAM. If it would not be supported it would not have gotten off the ground.

I don't own Fiber Optics, but from all the post over the years and questions, I see it is only George Sands, Bob Culver, Jose De La Torre, and others material that has been published over the years in their own books and tricks sold by them. It is a out and out rip-off of other peoples ideas and tricks with rope. There is not one new thing in the DVD that has not been already published in some way previously.

It is to bad, everyone wants to complain, but yet has the DVD in their player. But it does fill the need for people that need to have what they think is an easier way to learn magic from video; and yet, they still cannot understand what it is to present a magic rope trick.
Woland
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Al,

Thanks for the suggestions. I think the Loomis Knots routine is excellent. I also think that Magic Ian's "Dances With Ropes" and allied materials are first rate.

Mr. Biro's observations are spot on. That is the challenge.


Woland
funsway
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Of course, being prepared to do 20 minutes doesn't mean that happens. Depending on the audience and your ability to engage -- your planned "tricks" may take only 12 minutes to show, while your planned "effects" could fill an hour as entertainment. To the extent that a magic performance is "selling" you must sell yourself first, the concept of magic second, and the given effect last.

I always remember that George Orwell could entertain an audience for 15 minutes by reading from a phone book. He was also a magician, but few even know that.

One of the secret secrets of performance magic is that since the audience does not know what you have planned, there is no requirement to do the whole thing.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
defconskylude
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Although I own other rope effects, I truly love fiber optics the most as well as the advanced version purely because of the eye candy. like one of the posts above, some of the other rope effects I found were too complicated, short, one trick pony or simply doesn't have that WOW factor like fiber optics. fiber optics is a good 5-7 minute routine which I like and I love that I can dictate the length of time based on the spectators reaction(s). I'm not a stage performer nor a magician that makes a living on magic but it wouldnt make sense for me to carry a pair of scissors for cut & restore rope magic. pop knots are personally kinda boring. fiber optics fits me very well even with the pretend cuts and acrobatic moves.

I'm glad fiber optics has seen the light of day otherwise I wouldnt have been interested in rope magic at all. after learning the fiber optics routine, I wanted to learn more rope magic as well as the history.

Quote:
What I am saying is that apparently not enough has been done in that dvd to get across the need to do more than just the moves when presenting a 'magical' rope routine sequence.


I have no clue on what youre talking about here. with the advanced version, you can make it more magical by borrowing a spectators bracelet for the ring and rope routine. don't forget that you can let the spectator inspect the rope and include them on the ending. what else do you need to add to fiber optics? color changing ropes mid routine? add a fourth rope? light the ropes on fire? I don't get it. its fine as it is. if people want to learn history, let them decide for themselves to buy and invest in rope history.

this is a fun routine for me and its always in my back pocket. if my spectator is having fun and enjoys the routine, that's all it matters. if I mess up, that's my fault, not sanders. the spectator could care less about rope history.
magicians
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Quote:
On 2010-11-08 14:19, defconskylude wrote:
Although I own other rope effects, I truly love fiber optics the most as well as the advanced version purely because of the eye candy. like one of the posts above, some of the other rope effects I found were too complicated, short, one trick pony or simply doesn't have that WOW factor like fiber optics. fiber optics is a good 5-7 minute routine which I like and I love that I can dictate the length of time based on the spectators reaction(s). I'm not a stage performer nor a magician that makes a living on magic but it wouldnt make sense for me to carry a pair of scissors for cut & restore rope magic. pop knots are personally kinda boring. fiber optics fits me very well even with the pretend cuts and acrobatic moves.

I'm glad fiber optics has seen the light of day otherwise I wouldnt have been interested in rope magic at all. after learning the fiber optics routine, I wanted to learn more rope magic as well as the history.

Quote:
What I am saying is that apparently not enough has been done in that dvd to get across the need to do more than just the moves when presenting a 'magical' rope routine sequence.


I have no clue on what youre talking about here. with the advanced version, you can make it more magical by borrowing a spectators bracelet for the ring and rope routine. don't forget that you can let the spectator inspect the rope and include them on the ending. what else do you need to add to fiber optics? color changing ropes mid routine? add a fourth rope? light the ropes on fire? I don't get it. its fine as it is. if people want to learn history, let them decide for themselves to buy and invest in rope history.

this is a fun routine for me and its always in my back pocket. if my spectator is having fun and enjoys the routine, that's all it matters. if I mess up, that's my fault, not sanders. the spectator could care less about rope history.

You are lucky. Fiber optics as a first effect can be great.
From a historical point, it is not your fault that some of the routine is not all Richard Sanders. The good thing is, that the material he shows is really not available as dynamically as Richard shows it. So, you get George Sands technique in a secondary way, but done well.
The conflict of magicians like myself is that you are not aware of the history. So whoever gets to you first, is your rope hero.
If you ever decide to get another rope effect, you will see a lot of duplication. (except if you get my stuff).
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Andrew Zuber
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I haven't seen Fiber Optics - does Richard give proper credit to those that originated the moves, or is he selling them as his own?
That's one thing I love about guys like Michael Vincent - I've been going through his coin material and he spends all kinds of time crediting moves and various sequences to different people. I would hope Richard was doing the same thing.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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