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Sealegs
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My gripe isn't about the history of who's doing what based on who's move. That's worthy of discussion of course but it's at a tangent to what I see is the 'curse' with this Fibre Optics dvd.

The point I was pushing was unknowingly exemplified by defconskylude when, in response to my partially quoted comment...
Quote:
I'm not saying that the material contained within the 'Fiber Optics dvd' isn't good strong well presented material. What I am saying is that apparently not enough has been done in that dvd to get across the need to do more than just the moves when presenting a 'magical' rope routine sequence.


....defconskylude wrote:
Quote:
"I have no clue on what you're talking about here." .....and .... "I truly love fiber optics ... purely because of the eye candy." ... and ... "what else do you need to add to fiber optics?"


These comments demonstrates the 'Curse' of Fibre Optics perfectly.

defconskylude, and the other Fibre Optics performers I've seen can't seem to see past the moves. That there might be more to performance than the pretty moves appears to be conceptually invisible to them.

So I would ask the rope move monkeys dazzled by the eye candy of it to think on this...

A tap dancer could stand there and demonstrate, one after another in quick succession, the various tap steps that they know.

It wouldn't be very entertaining.

Or they could take those same steps, maybe not even use all of them, and choreograph a routine that is something way more. A piece of theatre that creates a mood, sets a scene, maybe tells a story, elicits emotions in the people watching.

Such a routine uses the tap steps, along with other aspects of performing, to create a piece of theatre that entertains.

By comparison the taps steps on their own demonstrated one after another are dull and uninteresting to very few people other than to the person tapping out their steps.

If you substitute tap steps with rope moves maybe that will help answer the question defconskylude asked his post, "what else do you need to add to fiber optics?"

(The worrying thing is I suspect some will read this and think I'm suggesting adding tap dancing to rope magic. That's not what I'm suggesting... but given the showings of Fibre Optics that I've seen so far it wouldn't do any harm)
Neal Austin

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Quote:
On 2010-11-08 17:43, Andrewzuber wrote:
I haven't seen Fiber Optics - does Richard give proper credit to those that originated the moves, or is he selling them as his own?
That's one thing I love about guys like Michael Vincent - I've been going through his coin material and he spends all kinds of time crediting moves and various sequences to different people. I would hope Richard was doing the same thing.

Andrew: There is no due credit, and the lack of homage to moves included has been a point of contention.
----------
Sealegs: Funny you should mention tap dance steps. I look at rope routines in just that fashion which is why my rope routines are called "Dances with ropes".
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Dr. JK
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Sealegs, I'm curious to know if you feel the same way about "Three Ropes and a Baby?" I don't have Fiber Optics, but I do have the "Three Ropes," and I wonder if it's the same in your mind. I think they're based on the same moves, but I guess I don't know enough about Fiber Optics to say myself. Thanks!
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Al Angello
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I use a few fiber optics moves in my rope routine, and I know about all the George Sands moves that Richard uses. But in fiber optics extended there are a few ring, and rope moves that I have found no where else, so Richard (at least as far as I know) does employ a few original moves.
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0pus
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Quote:
On 2010-11-06 19:07, funsway wrote:
I'm probably the only one, but I've never liked any rope routine with pretend cuts of the rope. I just can't imagine how any lay person finds it magical at all.

same goes for revealing the short piece. . ..


You are not the only one.
Xcath1
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I agree with Sealegs about the "collection of flashy moves" nature of fiber optics although I admit I perform it to incredible audience response. I think some classic rope routines, like some classic linking ring routines have just been seen too many times to be surprising. Magic is a little like comedy. Even is something is done well and you cannot ascertain the method, it will lose its magical appeal if seen many times. I am sure this will happen with fiber optics but so far so good. I also have to say that in my mind so many spectators have seen a sliding or popping knot by this time that I think this could be argued as "short piece" exposure. Also how many magic kits do not contain PN.
I start my "single piece" fiber optics routine by taking up the "middle" of the rope into my left hand in the fashion of traditional cut and restored rope and then have myself or the spectator tap the loop of rope with the handle end of a pair of scissors "magic wand" fashion and release the ends showing the cut rope. Explaining that most people think you cannot cut rope that way I do one of the flash restores and say perhaps we should start over. This sequence goes over as well or bettor than the sliding ends which yes I cannot keep myself from doing. I do see Sealegs point but can't stay away from the crack
TheAmbitiousCard
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Is it becoming "rope manipulation" instead of a rope routine? A lot of billiard ball routines, card routines, etc. don't have much to them except for a series of moves also. Just something to consider, for comparison.

The fiber optics DVD is fantastic. Very visual stuff. Very unique and MUCH improved moves to do certain things.

Fiber optics taught me tools that I can use in a rope routine. I took what I liked from the DVD. I don't do any routine from the DVD. The moves, visual or not, are fantastic improvements.

When I think of all the instructions involved with, for example, daryl's rope routine to get from point A to point B and then compare it with Fiber Optics, the latter is faster, easier, and more deceptive.
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Sealegs
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Frank,

I think your analogy of some billiard ball and card manipulation routines is absolutely spot on.

Often when watching such routines I, and those around me, have absolutely no idea what is going on.

Although in theory the vanishes, productions, colour changes and multiplication of the props almost certainly make sense in context of how the routine plays out, the apparent need to get onto the next sleight seems to trump all other considerations in performance and as a consequence the end result is that of confused chaos.

It's so refreshing when one does come across a performance of a card, ball, thimble or rope routine that an audience is actually able to follow, take in and have time to enjoy.

Of course artistry is much harder to acquire than the ability to just replicate 'moves'.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I believe that this somewhat explains why when Tabary put his rope material on the market it didn't spawn the same deluge of people replicating the moves, thoughtlessly, one after the other.

And in case anyone was to thnk otherwise my intention isn't to bash Fibre Optics as a product. I am just looking at the results that this material, on coming to the market, has lead to. In light of this I can't help but come to the conclusion that I opened this thread with.

Quote:
I'm not saying that the material contained within the 'Fiber Optics dvd' isn't good strong well presented material. What I am saying is that apparently not enough has been done in that dvd to get across the need to do more than just the moves when presenting a 'magical' rope routine sequence.
Neal Austin

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The problem is that that it is only a handful of afficianados who can view this material the way Frank does. The can of worms that gets opened is the bulk of the emulators (I see it on youtube constantly) who butcher the routine. When you legitimize a move like revealing the small piece in the manner of Fiber optic, you have in essence exposed it in its entirety. A mere flash of the "fulcrum" where the pieces meet would have been deemed a huge error and now its okay to flip it around openly.
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Al Angello
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Frank
How much of Richards routine do you do?
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Alan Munro
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I used to perform Daryl's Rope Routine, and before that I performed a couple of George Sands routines. Then, I stopped performing them because I felt that I was just doing a series of moves. Years later, I started performing Fiber Optics, with a couple segments left out because of routining decisions. The routine isn't just a series of moves. The reason why is because I have more experience, now, and I know how to make it play.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Al,
To me Richards routine is a Sands routine with better transitions; easier to accomplish, and more visually appealing.

How much do I do? None.

I either do a professor's nightmare routine in my adult stand-up act

or

I do a longer routine that has similar structure to mongo. pop knot but a completely different presentation. it is in this longer routine where I use some of the F.O. moves. I do this for family audiences or less formal shows. So.. much less often.
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Andrew Zuber
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Having not seen it, I'm curious...is it being sold as a routine (or a series of routines,) or rather just moves? I can see a DVD full of moves being interesting on its own; Michael Ammar's cups and balls DVDs, while they contain a few small routines, are mostly about moves. It's up to the performer to know how to structure those into a routine that flows smoothly. Does Fiber Optics provide those tools, or just the parts, leaving it to the magician to build a routine?
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Pete Biro
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In my book, "Give a Magician Enough Rope" for a version of PN similar to Whit's MPK, and based on a routine sold by Ken Brooke 20+ years ago as "The Conway Rope Trick."
Starts with one ungimmicked single long piece cut into three pieces that "accidenetally" are UNEQUAL... you stretch ala Sylwester and finish with one single long piece.
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TheAmbitiousCard
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Quote:
On 2010-11-10 13:29, Andrewzuber wrote:
Having not seen it, I'm curious...is it being sold as a routine (or a series of routines,) or rather just moves? I can see a DVD full of moves being interesting on its own; Michael Ammar's cups and balls DVDs, while they contain a few small routines, are mostly about moves. It's up to the performer to know how to structure those into a routine that flows smoothly. Does Fiber Optics provide those tools, or just the parts, leaving it to the magician to build a routine?


It's a lot of moves and a few different routines using those moves. It's a great DVD.
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Quote:
On 2010-11-10 13:29, Andrewzuber wrote:
Having not seen it, I'm curious...is it being sold as a routine (or a series of routines,) or rather just moves? I can see a DVD full of moves being interesting on its own; Michael Ammar's cups and balls DVDs, while they contain a few small routines, are mostly about moves. It's up to the performer to know how to structure those into a routine that flows smoothly. Does Fiber Optics provide those tools, or just the parts, leaving it to the magician to build a routine?

I bought mine second hand to see what the hype was about. (and to make sure I didn't cross any boundaries in my work).
I suggest you buy it second hand as there is usually a copy up for sale. Get the extended version. Half or more of the content is Sands, plus stock stuff, then Richard effects. Navigation on the DVD is difficult.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
TheAmbitiousCard
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For those that don't like the removal of the ends (or the middle) of the rope and consider it tipping the gaff there are other things you can add in its place that are close.

Here's what I do instead of removing the middle:
If your rope has both ends hanging down with the middle in your hand, a typical FO move is to pluck the middle right off the rope. *pluck* (did you hear that?)

instead

bring up one of the ends into the fist.
remove the middle and the end together.
(which leaves the end in the middle and the middle at the end? or?)

and (if you like) bring up a new middle from within the fist
leaving your rope with one end and two middles (instead of vice versa)

you can then reverse the process (sort of or do what you like) to get back to 2 ends and one middle.

the moves are still very visual and maintain quite an illusion without tipping the gaff.

There's no way popping the middle off of my rope would fool my 10 year old son.
It might surprise him but ...
Doing it this way led him to say, "well if it's just a normal rope, let me keep it then"

BINGO!
Case closed!
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inaciolino
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I don't think the problem is with the Fiber Optics routine. The DVD isn't the real problem. In my opinion there're too many magicians that don't give to the magic the love and affection it deservers. We need to learn the foundations of magic. Doing magic isn't a matter of doing tricks, it's much more than that. Doing magic is arouse feelings in the audience, bring them to their childhood, make them dream. As magicians we need to develope our own style, we ought to be original. That's the key. See you!!!
Tim Hughes
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Sorry, but I like doing the Fiber Optics Extended (without the sliding ends- which unless you are VERY good will look dreadful) and I get a good response from the audience - but I have a spectator to help me on stage, and the audience gets a kick out of their reaction too. Add a little intereaction with the spectator and it seems to entertain the lay public. I also do rope routines from Tarbell, which need a lot more presentation to make them work.

Tim (less experienced than a lot of people here)
tboehnlein
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This is a great dvd, you takes the individual sleights and create your owqn routine, no differant than any other teaching video or book. Watching the ex. On youtube is no differant than attending some magic club meetings.
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