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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Bottom deal positions for smaller hands? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

Wednesday
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Vancouver, BC
54 Posts

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Hello everyone,

I really don't want to complain about small hands, but I find the Erdanase bottom deal to be extremely difficult to perform.

I can't seem to be able to get that "diagonal control" that comes from the second finger and the base of my palm.
The problem is that I can't get a good grip with the base of my thumb.
The problems that I encounter all the time every time that I come back to this sleight is that
1) Can't get the diagonal control, so the cards are very loose and fall apart when I deal one card. Every time that one card is dealt from Erdanse position the left-bottom hand corner slips pass the base of my thumb, so that's why the cards fall apart.

2) I can get the loosening action, but again due to lack of diagonal control, the cards fall over after one deal.

This sleight is really difficult. I've been practicing on and off for about a year. I've read through google and some sources on the MagicCafe that the Erdanase position is not really meant for smaller hands.

I do have Jason England's theory 1-on-1, that is the main source that I have for bottom dealing.

Any suggestions?
NicholasD
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Inner circle
1460 Posts

Profile of NicholasD
I don't have small hands, but I had similar problems when I first began bottom dealing. My solution was to abandon the Erdnase Bottom deal for a time , and concentrate on other grips. In particular, I switched to a variation of the Marlo Master grip. Without getting into all the details, within about a year, I was doing pretty good bottoms. Two to three years later, I was extremely happy with my bottoms. Then, I decided to give the Erdnase Bottom another try and I found that the skills I acquired with the other grip helped me with the deal.

I use the Marlo Master grip variant almost exclusively, however, as Jason England indicates, the Erdnase Grip seems to be better for consecutive bottoms.

I also recommend Gene Maze's book The Art of Bottom Dealing.
tommy
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Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
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You could try a Doc Daley or Walter Scott botton of the straddle kind...the pinky at the back.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
kipling100
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One tip I read is that only the bottom cards have to be in diagonal control, not the whole deck.
Kimura
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Anyone who says small hands doesn't matter in sleight of hand is a moron.

I'm also cursed with tiny hands (I make up for it by being large in other areas) and I've had the most success with the gene maze erdnase variant. Not that it'll be easy....practice practice practice
popcalinda
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Hm, strange. Second finger and base of thumb make longer diagonal line so you can hold deck stronger then with first finger - base of the thumb. I had problem with mechanic grip but Erdnase mod.girp works very well for me. Curl around front end of the deck with second finger so the front right corner is pressed somewhere with first joint of middle finger and move deck more backward and down, mostly to Master grip position. Stretch thumb to the diagonal right so your thumb press upper part of deck (left back corner). If you pres with thumb somewhere in that top right corner you will see that deck is almost held with first joint of second finger, pressure on deck with third joint of first finger and thum pressure on top of the deck.
Jonathan O
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I have the same problem. Instead of using the Erdnase grip, I use the grip showed in Expert Card Technique. You just have to try different grips to find the one that fits you best.

Jonathan
Wednesday
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Vancouver, BC
54 Posts

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Thank you for the suggestions everyone.

I gave the straddle grip a try. I'm not sure how it's supposed to look, but, it does feel very secure for me.

I'm not sure about how it's "officially" done, but I am able to deal from the bottom a lot more comfortably as compared with the erdanase grip or mechanic's grip.
I also encounter the same problem with mechanic's grip, can't get that diagonal control from the two corners.

Is the bottom deal action supposed to be one that loosen's the card first or that the dealing hand physically loosens the card as it's taking it?
If you feel that explaining this is exposure, feel free not to post, I was just curious because I excited that I found something that I can finally practice with.
I've also noticed that this grip is way difficult with older cards, is this just because of lack of practice or just the nature of the grip?

It's nice that there are a lot of grips out there, but at the same time it's a bit inconvenient because it's something that has to be searched, and bottom dealing is not the most common subject in the world haha.
splice
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Canada
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Quote:
On 2010-11-09 03:13, Wednesday wrote:

Is the bottom deal action supposed to be one that loosen's the card first or that the dealing hand physically loosens the card as it's taking it?


Both. Either. It's up to you. It's the difference between a push-out bottom deal and a strike bottom deal.

Quote:
It's nice that there are a lot of grips out there, but at the same time it's a bit inconvenient because it's something that has to be searched, and bottom dealing is not the most common subject in the world haha.


What's actually inconvenient is not the number of different grips, but rather the fact that everybody's hands are different, and what works well for one person may not work at all for another without a lot of effort.

Sure, it'd be aces if there was a bottom deal grip that was perfect for everyone under every condition, but that's a pipe dream. Being able to bottom deal well is going to take a lot of work, and part of that hard work is finding a grip that works for you in the conditions under which you do your work.
MickeyPainless
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California
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Finding the "right" grip has been kickin my butt for a few years now! For whatever reason this particular sleigh gives me nightmares! I have a so so strike from a modified hodge podge conglomerate grip that works ok on the blind and cross eyed but I'm still miles away from acceptable!
Jon Hackett
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UK
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Misdirection chaps...

Me Earle has a nice couple of blogs on said subject.

http://www.benjaminearl.com/2010/11/basement-camouflage-2/

http://www.benjaminearl.com/2010/10/basement-camouflage/

Moreover, I cant recommend enough Dr Daleys Bottom Deal Wrinkle if you only need to BD one card.

I have found that the best grip is not one published, but that which compliments ones own mannerisms. If you really struggle, find a really unnatural way of doing it, but make it totally invisible, then justify it with something like,

'this is how one-eyed Joe used to deal'

Sorry I cant be more helpful.

Good day Gentlemen!

Jon Hackett
It is not the brains that matter most, but that which guides them -- the character, the heart, generous qualities and progressive ideas. Doystoyevsky
silverking
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Earle also has a great column on his blog called "From the Flat Store", written by somebody named "The Vegas Gypsy".

http://www.benjaminearl.com/category/from-the-flat-store/

Definitely worth checking out.
stoneunhinged
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Silver, that tip made my night. Thanks.
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