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critter
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 17:32, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 16:45, critter wrote:
Well there is that...

I am so sick of the whole "the rich are just trying to feed their families. Who cares if they have to screw 10,000 people from Michigan to do it?"

1. Not everybody's sense of decency is for sale. I have quit jobs when I was asked to lie or to take a shortcut around health codes just to get a product out faster.

2. Whose family is going to starve if they don't make 55 billion dollars instead of 45 billion dollars?

These guys obviously have the disposable income to contribute to big public charities if it helps their PR.

You're right, I can't tell them what to do with their money, but why am I wrong to ask that they have a little compassion for their fellow human beings?

The defenders of the corporate elite generally like to cite Ayn Rand. Reagan was certainly a fan. Well, Ayn Rand was a textbook psychopath.
I've read many of her books and a few biographies of her and I know a thing or two about psychology and she matches the diagnosis.
Here's a few traits from Hare's psychopathy checklist and how they relate:
1. Superficial charm, glibness and Grandiosity- The architect from the Fountainhead, the 'great society' from Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand herself
2. Flattened affect (reduced emotion) and 3. Need for stimulation- are both traits used to describe the lead characters in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead
4. Cons and Manipulation and 5. Promiscuous sexual behavior- How about Rand taking a lover on the side while both she and the lover were married and manipulating her husband into accepting it? True story
Other traits are impulsivity (Dagney Taggert,) lack of remorse and callousness (easy ones.)

Here's something that she wrote about an intended hero of a future novel:
"is born with a wonderful, free, light consciousness -- [resulting from] the absolute lack of social instinct or herd feeling. He does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should."
The character was inspired by William Hickman, a murderer.
That's where the roots of Libertarianism lie.


If you place the roots of Libertarianism in the 20th century, you may know a lot about Rand, but you know very little about Libertarianism.


Course, if you want to get right down to it, Rand didn't originate all of her ideas either. Much of her philosophy came from misinterpreting folks like Nietsche. But, Rand is the one who folks like Ronald Reagan and Alan Greenspan studied and admired (their word,) so she is the best model of the psychopathy and corporate elitism which eventually became national policy.
We've been had. We were seduced and now we are in the walk of shame phase.
That's the reality. Spin it however you want, but all I have to do is take a walk outside to see it for myself.
All the down talking and semantic plays in the world aren't going to change it.
This isn't a hypothetical world for your intellect to shape, it's the real world and people are starving. Food banks are running out of food, unemployment is running out, and people are suffering.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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Yea you are the keeper of a greater knowledge. Oh lord.

You have to ask yourself why it is necessary for everyone you disagree with to be evil in some way. Can't the other side just be wrong for once? Our problems would be so much easier to fix if everyone just didn't try to make the other side demons. It really is sad.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 17:56, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 17:38, critter wrote:
Well "they" are the ones who keep the poor... poor. "They" fire Americans to replace them with less capable foreigners which leads to both higher unemployment and shoddier service and products. "They" also made the lending policies that crippled the economy.

So that's OK with you, but a worker wanting to be treated like a person is the bad guy. Got it.

The rich *** us, it's their responsibility to put things right.

Interesting perspective. Now where do you stand on immigration and the non legals here now?

Oh was it "they" or congress who made that policy? Think hard and look at fair lending acts and such. It is not quite as easy a solution to blame one group for a very dynamic problem. Yes I admit it is easier to hate them and pin things on them as a single group, THE RICH, BUT it is not so right.


It was "they" who created Fannie May.

Quote:
For example how many poor people create jobs? You want to hate a group for the problems and I get that. Ok no problem. Oh and if you hate the rich


Is this to imply that there are only two classes? Heck, I guess the middle class has already been eradicated!
The poor? Not many, because they're poor. Seriously?
Middle class small business owners? Quite a few.
Not as many as before, now that nobody has jobs with which to make money with which to spend at and support small businesses though.

Quote:
or the christians


So now you want to make stuff up about me? That's an interesting tactic since
1. I never mentioned religion,
2. Rand (the example of evil that I used) was an atheist,
and
3. If you'd asked me about religion I'd have been happy to tout the positive work done by homeless shelters and other Christian charities to help those who have fallen victim to the current re-de-cessiapression.

So do you want to have a discussion or is it going to be a making *** up contest?

Quote:
you can do it and it is not a hate crime so double cool for you. But does that class warfare nonsense solve problems? Really solving problems with blame and hate is not the best way to go about it. I point to the last 2 years as sort of proof of that.


Hey, you were the one who implied that the middle class deserve to have their jobs given away because they chose to unionize and demand fair pay and benefits. If you attack a side then my only logical response is to counterattack the other side.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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On 2010-12-13 18:05, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea you are the keeper of a greater knowledge. Oh lord.

You have to ask yourself why it is necessary for everyone you disagree with to be evil in some way. Can't the other side just be wrong for once? Our problems would be so much easier to fix if everyone just didn't try to make the other side demons. It really is sad.


Because the alternative is to say that hurting people by letting them starve is not evil. I won't say that. And you're right, it is pretty darned sad.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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You have to ask yourself why it is necessary for everyone you disagree with to be evil in some way.


PS, this is a pretty ignorant statement since I like most of the people I've disagreed with and I've disagreed with everyone I like.

Nah, I don't know everything, but I do know this-Ask any clinical psychologist what evil is, and they will tell you that it is psychopathy.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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I know psychology is your new toy. Wonderful. But fact is that you are making simple statements about complex problems and looking foolish.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:05, Dannydoyle wrote:
Yea you are the keeper of a greater knowledge. Oh lord.

You have to ask yourself why it is necessary for everyone you disagree with to be evil in some way. Can't the other side just be wrong for once? Our problems would be so much easier to fix if everyone just didn't try to make the other side demons. It really is sad.


THAT was an ironic statement!
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:22, critter wrote:
Quote:
You have to ask yourself why it is necessary for everyone you disagree with to be evil in some way.


PS, this is a pretty ignorant statement since I like most of the people I've disagreed with and I've disagreed with everyone I like.

Nah, I don't know everything, but I do know this-Ask any clinical psychologist what evil is, and they will tell you that it is psychopathy.


They'll also tell you that you should generally talk to someone before diagnosing him or her, and that a sample size of 1 (who is best known through writing fiction) is awfully small to go connecting a particular mental illness to a particular political philosophy. I assure you, there are lots of progressives whose pictures could go in the DSM-4, too.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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On 2010-12-13 18:26, Dannydoyle wrote:
I know psychology is your new toy.


Yeah, new since 1996 when I took my first independent study psych class in high school.
And the making *** up tactic is starting to make me realize why I'm the only one still even attempting to take the 'other side' on this issue. What's the use of trying to introduce facts to a discussion with someone who will just make up whatever the heck they want anyway?
I guess everybody else just knew better.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Steve_Mollett
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On 2010-12-13 18:26, Dannydoyle wrote:
I know psychology is your new toy. Wonderful. But fact is that you are making simple statements about complex problems and looking foolish.

Mr. Pot--meet Mr. Kettle.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
critter
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On 2010-12-13 16:25, Dannydoyle wrote:
[Why is a company making a profit so horrible to you? If you could make more money for your family doing thing A vs thing B which would you do? Would you ever for a second think how it impacted people in the opposite choice that you make?

What gives you the right to tell companies where they can and can not make products? If the incentives were here in America guess what? Well they would make things here in America wouldnt they? It is simple, give them a reason to stay and they will. Make them demons, which is what you love to do, and they leave. Why wouldn't they?


And these sure aren't simple statements about complex issues!

*Oh, someone else beat me to it.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
thorndyke
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When in doubt, buy goods manufactured in your own country. Ask your government where it sends relief money and if those countries have standing armies or atomic weapons, and if so why send them any aid, that's your tax dollars after all.
Use your vote to punish incumbents who go along with outsourcing or taxation breaks that help companies that outsource. And tell the winning candidate why they won and that they are on probation.
critter
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Just for the record, my DOUBLE major prior to last summer quarter, and what I got my first college degree in, was Psychology AND Biology. I did not 'recently add' psychology, I only dropped biology. This was clearly stated in the intro to the thread that Dr. Parnassus seems to be referring to.
I talk about psychology because it's what I know. I figure that's a better idea than just making *** up that I don't know.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:29, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:22, critter wrote:
Quote:
You have to ask yourself why it is necessary for everyone you disagree with to be evil in some way.


PS, this is a pretty ignorant statement since I like most of the people I've disagreed with and I've disagreed with everyone I like.

Nah, I don't know everything, but I do know this-Ask any clinical psychologist what evil is, and they will tell you that it is psychopathy.


They'll also tell you that you should generally talk to someone before diagnosing him or her, and that a sample size of 1 (who is best known through writing fiction) is awfully small to go connecting a particular mental illness to a particular political philosophy. I assure you, there are lots of progressives whose pictures could go in the DSM-4, too.


Oh yeah. I agree with that. I am only using Rand as an example to illustrate specific traits of the psychopath. It's those traits that I take issue with and which seem to come up a lot in defending corporate greed.

As I've noted before, I don't think that Dems are the "good guys." It's my opinion that the majority of politicians in both parties probably have a certain degree of psychopathy or narcissism to get where they are.

The illustration of Rand (although I would disagree with her being best known through fiction, I think she's best known as a philosopher whose fiction is a vehicle ro expound that philosophy) is to illustrate what I consider to be a collective psychopathy which is inherent in the corporate lifestyle.
That part is just my opinion.
What I am saying is that my choice to define it as "Evil" has a precedent within the scientific community.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Woland
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Questions:

1) After John D. Rockefeller had consolidated many petroleum companies into the Standard Oil Company, were petroleum products available on the market of a better quality or a worse quality?

2) After John D. Rockefeller had consolidated many petroleum companies into the Standard Oil Company, were petroleum products more expensive or less expensive to the consumer?

Woland
balducci
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On 2010-12-13 18:39, critter wrote:

I talk about psychology because it's what I know. I figure that's a better idea than just making *** up that I don't know.

If you'd learned anything from your psychology courses, you'd know that's not the case. You can get just as far blathering on about stuff you know nothing about, so long as you have charisma and a good convincing act. Smile

Lol. I don't know if my statement above is true, but I think it SOUNDS pretty convincing. Smile
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
critter
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On 2010-12-13 18:56, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:39, critter wrote:

I talk about psychology because it's what I know. I figure that's a better idea than just making *** up that I don't know.

If you'd learned anything from your psychology courses, you'd know that's not the case. You can get just as far blathering on about stuff you know nothing about, so long as you have charisma and a good convincing act. Smile

Lol. I don't know if my statement above is true, but I think it SOUNDS pretty convincing. Smile


Yeah, you're probably right. I like to think that most of those types get found out eventually though.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:53, Woland wrote:
Questions:

1) After John D. Rockefeller had consolidated many petroleum companies into the Standard Oil Company, were petroleum products available on the market of a better quality or a worse quality?

2) After John D. Rockefeller had consolidated many petroleum companies into the Standard Oil Company, were petroleum products more expensive or less expensive to the consumer?

Woland

Probably yes to both, at least for the most part. But I've missed your point. How does this tie in with the rest of the conversation?

Questions for you:

1) Was Standard Oil's dominant position in the refining industry due to unfair practices, to abuse of the control of pipe-lines, to railroad discriminations, and to unfair methods of competition? [Correct answer: Yes]

2) Did Standard Oil Company charge altogether excessive prices where it met no competition, and particularly where there was little likelihood of competitors entering the field? And, where competition was active, did it frequently cut prices to a point which left even the Standard little or no profit, and which more often left no profit to the competitor? [Correct answer: Yes]
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
critter
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Evidently, I'm not the first to come up with the parallel's to psychopathy within the typical corporate culture.
I've just discovered a film called "The Corporation" from 2003 that does the same.
I'm not claiming this mindset to be universal. There are some progressive companies out there doing good things for their workers and reaping the benefits via increased creativity and productivity.
I do think the psychopathic mindset is a bit too common for comfort though.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 21:55, critter wrote:
Evidently, I'm not the first to come up with the parallel's to psychopathy within the typical corporate culture.
I've just discovered a film called "The Corporation" from 2003 that does the same.
I'm not claiming this mindset to be universal. There are some progressive companies out there doing good things for their workers and reaping the benefits via increased creativity and productivity.
I do think the psychopathic mindset is a bit too common for comfort though.

10% of the population and growing, according to some psychiatrists. And that is really scary.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
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