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HerbLarry
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On 2010-12-15 18:17, EsnRedshirt wrote:
HerbLarry- why are you even asking? It's obvious that nobody, including the SCOTUS (if they decide in a way you don't agree with), will have an answer that's to your liking.


Cool your a mind reader too? I will be very eager to read the decisions they come up with. My prediction is 5-4 vote HealthCare is not a right if that question is even answered. More likely the questions of can we be forced to participate and is it a Tax or a Penalty if we don't participate will be addressed as those are the basis for the current opposition. Without forcing us in the whole thing falls apart.
You know why don't act naive.
EsnRedshirt
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By the way, the healthcare bill isn't a "right". It's a bill. I'm still curious as to which part of it you seem to think that people say is a "right".
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
critter
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Where the hell is that white rabbit? I'm ready to go home.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
HerbLarry
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On 2010-12-15 18:20, critter wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-15 18:17, HerbLarry wrote:
Quote:

Now that I've settled this issue, care to answer Lobo's question and also mine about the dollar? It's only fair.


I apologize the reference to the dollar is too vague I can't find one. Please restate?


The question is:
What's more important, one dollar or two lives?

It's just a general ethical question.


Lives are, to anyone with even half the heart of a Grinch before hearing singing in the village, obviously more important.
Lets not forget that Tyranny leads to death. That makes it a bad thing.
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gdw
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On 2010-12-15 18:22, EsnRedshirt wrote:
By the way, the healthcare bill isn't a "right". It's a bill. I'm still curious as to which part of it you seem to think that people say is a "right".


I don't think anyone's referring to the healthcare BILL as a "right," they are saying health care itself is not a "right," and in that, they are, um, right.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
tommy
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These rights do not mean the government must provide this that and the other.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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HerbLarry
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On 2010-12-15 18:22, EsnRedshirt wrote:
By the way, the healthcare bill isn't a "right". It's a bill. I'm still curious as to which part of it you seem to think that people say is a "right".


I get your meaning correct numerous people both here and in our Country have professed that it is a Right therefore it must exist.
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critter
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...Lives are, to anyone with even half the heart of a Grinch before hearing singing in the village, obviously more important...


Okay, good. That's all. I don't really have any further point with that, I just wanted to hear someone say this before my head exploded.

Now I can happily drink my cough tea.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
LobowolfXXX
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So, HerbLarry...no comment on freedom of assembly?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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You don't get two cents worth of education today you get trained.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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HerbLarry
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On 2010-12-15 18:33, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, HerbLarry...no comment on freedom of assembly?


Here ya go:

Amendment 1 - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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HerbLarry
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On 2010-12-15 18:40, tommy wrote:
You don't get two cents worth of education today you get trained.


:applause: Smile Smile
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-12-15 20:49, HerbLarry wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-15 18:33, LobowolfXXX wrote:
So, HerbLarry...no comment on freedom of assembly?


Here ya go:

Amendment 1 - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The discussion, of course, has proceeded as if there were only one type of "right" (which may be the simple basis for a purely semantic dispute; e.g. legal rights vs. moral rights). But without further specifying what "rights" are in the abstract, I think the Declaration of Independence suggests that the founders would disagree. They weren't creating a document that *conveyed* rights; they were creating one that *recognized* rights that already existed:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident..." (some things are so apparent that they don't require justification)

"...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights" (further implying that the human rights DON'T derive from man-made documents, i.e. freedom of assembly is not a right "because" it's in the First Amendment; it's in the First Amendment because it's a right).

"that among these" (The list that follows is not exhaustive; there are other inalienable rights aside from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness).

"are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

Moreover, on its face the First Amendment doesn't purport to create or even grant a right of assembly:

"Congress shall make no law...abridging the right of the people peaceably to assemble..." That's written to indicate that freedom of assembly is a right that PREDATES the Constitution; the Constitution isn't granting a right; it's limiting the government's ability to interfere with a right that clearly derived ELSEWHERE.


None of which is to say that healthcare IS, actually, a right; but the argument that it's NOT a right merely because it's not in the Constitution is flawed. The justification for all of the "rights" guaranteed by the Constitution isn't that they're in the Constitution; it's that a bunch of people sitting around decided that they were rights, and embodied that decision in the Constitution. Someone thought that they were rights, and enough people agreed to give that value judgment legal weight. The thought that government provided health care may also be a right is no different, in principle (though, granted, it doesn't have the legal weight). But the FFs weren't creating rights; they were recognizing them. And there's nothing in their documents that remotely suggests that they thought that they were naming them all. In fact, by leaving the Constitution open to amendment, there's a strong suggestion to the contrary.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
HerbLarry
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I never said that heatlthcare is not a Right because it's not in the Constitution.
I asked how is healthcare a Right? Reasons given were general Welfare & EsnRedshirt says so.
I agree that it has no legal weight.
I asked a question. Everything here does not have to be, nor is it, an argument. I was curious how people, some on here, can say that healthcare is a Right.
I agree that the Constitution doesn't give Rights, it guarantees them, expressed so that Government can't walk on them, in theory. The freedom to assemble is clearly one. You asked me about it and I told you.

I do not believe that healthcare is a Right. I see no moral or legal reason to force people to provide for others, nor for Government using the Commerce clause to force anyone to purchase anything. In order for Government to provide healthcare they would necessarily have to do so. Then to turn around and penalize them if they don't will not be accepted by the people.
The logic that healthcare is a Right or that Government must provide it would naturally extend to Food Shelter & Clothing. Without these basic needs health is clearly in jeopardy. Should Government be required to provide them as well? I say no. To go down that road there is no end.
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Steve_Mollett
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Boy, what a lot of frenetic hoopla just to miser away a few bucks! Smile
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The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
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LobowolfXXX
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On 2010-12-15 21:48, HerbLarry wrote:

I asked how is healthcare a Right? Reasons given were ... EsnRedshirt says so.


This is either a misreading or a misrepresentation of what I said. I never said, nor suggested, that it's a right because EnsRedshirt said so; I said that Esn answered your question by suggesting that it's self-evident that it's a right. This is the same rationale that was used by the Founding Fathers in our founding documents; essentially, it seems pretty clear to him that it's a right. It's the exact same reason the Jefferson gave to explain why liberty is a right (except that Esn didn't invoke the endowment by a creator). In fact, Jefferson went further by not only offering no real reason why the rights he named in the D of I are rights, but also saying that no reasons would be provided or needed to be provided - they're "self-evident." He explicitly stated that some rights exist that he wasn't enumerating (the ones he listed didn't comprise a complete list; they were "among" the inalienable rights), and those rights needed no further justification.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-12-15 21:48, HerbLarry wrote:
I never said that heatlthcare is not a Right because it's not in the Constitution.



I asked how is assembly a right, and as I understood your post, your rationale is that it's a right because it's in the Constitution; however, even the drafters of the Constitution didn't take that position - it was a right BEFORE it was in the Constitution, and therefore, it was a right for some reason OTHER than "it's in the Constitution."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Critter, just to help you with your GENERAL WELFARE rant let me say this. GENERAL WELFARE is a term used as an introduction to the enumerated powers in Article 1 Section 8 of the constitution. (you really should read a document you insist on quoting so much from.) Then they get to use the enumerated powers for taxing to take care of that GENERAL WELFARE. It was not a catch all phrase so they can tax for whatever comes to mind. As a matter of fact they never did till the 1930's.
Also the idea that it benifits SOME and not ALL is also being challenged right now.

Take all the platitude positions you like. LIFE IS A RIGHT and yada yada yada. Ok I get it. I actually agree. We should do all we can to help our fellow man. I spend time at homeless shelters and food banks helping regularly. I do this of my own free will. The government in no way has mandated that I do so. While I am all for humanitarian causes and am part of many I simply do not believe that I should be forced to do so at the point of a gun, which effectively ANY government mandate does.

We need to pay taxes, we need to have police, fire, and garbage, roads, and all sorts of government services that we must simply pay for. To extend the idea of GENERAL WELFARE to mean that we force some to pay for others health care is not a RIGHT. I mean can we dictate whether they are allowed to smoke or drink or take drugs? Really it comes to being forced to pay for others behavior. I think we should not, and as I said it is not in the constitution either.
Danny Doyle
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Dannydoyle
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Here is a suggestion. Before we start throwing out what we think the constitution does and does not say, why not read it first?

This is Article 1 Section 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Here is the whole thing. http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charter......ipt.html

I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me, please read it. Not a long document.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-12-16 01:14, Dannydoyle wrote:
Here is a suggestion. Before we start throwing out what we think the constitution does and does not say, why not read it first?
I don't care if you agree with me or disagree with me, please read it. Not a long document.


I already posted a link to the whole thing. And I've read it many times. Thanks for another ignorant assumption based on nothing.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
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