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critter
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I don't think anybody cares how much money somebody else makes, as long as they aren't trying to hold everybody else down to stay on top.
If they throw a punch (say, by outsourcing my job to inferior workers) I'm sure not going to just stand there and take it.

Here's an interesting article on the subject of eliminating the middle class:
http://www.americaneconomicalert.org/vie......d_ID=935

And here's Republican Ron Paul discussing other aspects in a debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdC1v-eipT4

And here's a completely biased anti-Republican website, though the do put it to Clinton as well:
http://republicandirtytricks.com/workers......ass-war/

I'm not vouching for the reliability of any of this, only providing the information which this side of the debate has publicised.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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But if an oppressive tax rate forces them to outsoruce that job, whose fault is that? Umm that is number 12 for me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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Well when my first job got outsourced the GOP had been in power for 6 years and the Bush tax cuts were in full effect, sooo... I'm going with it being the corporation's full responsibility.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
landmark
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 13:57, Dannydoyle wrote:
But if an oppressive tax rate forces them to outsoruce that job, whose fault is that? Umm that is number 12 for me.

33, 45, and 67. I rest my case--or did I tell it wrong?
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 14:03, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 13:57, Dannydoyle wrote:
But if an oppressive tax rate forces them to outsoruce that job, whose fault is that? Umm that is number 12 for me.

33, 45, and 67. I rest my case--or did I tell it wrong?


Yea but do you consider 14 84 and 24 when you say that?

Here is a serious question. For 8 years these tax cuts were only for the weatlhy. Suddenly now they impact the middle class. I mean you libs have been screaming for 7 years against these cuts, now suddenly they are good. I mean I guess first thing we must do is credit Bush for a good idea huh? I mean if they were such a bad idea then why now suddenly good?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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I think I'm only on 3 or 4 in this thread. Guess I should get more vocal with my opinions.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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...For 8 years these tax cuts were only for the weatlhy. Suddenly now they impact the middle class. I mean you libs have been screaming for 7 years against these cuts, now suddenly they are good. I mean I guess first thing we must do is credit Bush for a good idea huh? I mean if they were such a bad idea then why now suddenly good?


I reckon it's implementation. Tax cuts for only the wealthy are implemented under the notion of "trickle down economics," which obviously doesn't work.
The corporate leaders got their tax cuts, but instead of helping those less wealthy they threw them under the bus. It's really "don't eyeball my money!" economics.

80's prosperity was an illusion. Americans didn't have more money, we just had higher spending limits so we got more debt. That worked out well, didn't it?

I'm not saying the other side is any better. I think all politicians are scum and they've all stuck it to us. Every last one of them. Some more than others though.

I recently saw a bumper sticker that said "shouldn't politicians have stickers on them like at NASCAR so we'll know who their corporate sponsors are?"
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
thorndyke
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In 1989, the company I worked for eliminated our department and hired a contract service. They claimed it was a business decision to save on operating costs - in other words increase profits without producing any kind of product - and we were offered our jobs by the contract company or we could leave and not have anything in the way of a two week notice. We all stayed on as we were all in debt and so on and couldn't afford to look for new jobs without a severance package. None of this was due to taxation or increases in taxes, just sunovaguns doing something because they could. The contract company that 'hired' us very quickly became unionized as they were also sunovaguns. They were bought by a bigger company, which was also bought by a bigger company. Many factors can go into job security and taxes can play a part, but I think outsourcing and importation of goods without tariffs play a more immediate part.
EsnRedshirt
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Shh! "Unionized" is a dirty word around here.

Ever notice when there's talk of raising taxes on the wealthy, it's "class warfare!" but when jobs are offshored and companies would rather shut down locations than allow workers to unionize, it's just "business as usual"?
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 10:45, Destiny wrote:
Are you making naughty innuendo's or are you innocent of the talents of the great Kate?


Yes and no.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 16:04, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Shh! "Unionized" is a dirty word around here.

Ever notice when there's talk of raising taxes on the wealthy, it's "class warfare!" but when jobs are offshored and companies would rather shut down locations than allow workers to unionize, it's just "business as usual"?


Why is a company making a profit so horrible to you? If you could make more money for your family doing thing A vs thing B which would you do? Would you ever for a second think how it impacted people in the opposite choice that you make?

What gives you the right to tell companies where they can and can not make products? If the incentives were here in America guess what? Well they would make things here in America wouldnt they? It is simple, give them a reason to stay and they will. Make them demons, which is what you love to do, and they leave. Why wouldn't they?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
critter
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So the solution is that Americans work for $1.00 an hour and no benefits? No thanks. I'd rather go to war.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
tommy
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You can't aford it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
critter
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Well there is that...

I am so sick of the whole "the rich are just trying to feed their families. Who cares if they have to screw 10,000 people from Michigan to do it?"

1. Not everybody's sense of decency is for sale. I have quit jobs when I was asked to lie or to take a shortcut around health codes just to get a product out faster.

2. Whose family is going to starve if they don't make 55 billion dollars instead of 45 billion dollars?

These guys obviously have the disposable income to contribute to big public charities if it helps their PR.

You're right, I can't tell them what to do with their money, but why am I wrong to ask that they have a little compassion for their fellow human beings?

The defenders of the corporate elite generally like to cite Ayn Rand. Reagan was certainly a fan. Well, Ayn Rand was a textbook psychopath.
I've read many of her books and a few biographies of her and I know a thing or two about psychology and she matches the diagnosis.
Here's a few traits from Hare's psychopathy checklist and how they relate:
1. Superficial charm, glibness and Grandiosity- The architect from the Fountainhead, the 'great society' from Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand herself
2. Flattened affect (reduced emotion) and 3. Need for stimulation- are both traits used to describe the lead characters in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead
4. Cons and Manipulation and 5. Promiscuous sexual behavior- How about Rand taking a lover on the side while both she and the lover were married and manipulating her husband into accepting it? True story
Other traits are impulsivity (Dagney Taggert,) lack of remorse and callousness (easy ones.)

Here's something that she wrote about an intended hero of a future novel:
"is born with a wonderful, free, light consciousness -- [resulting from] the absolute lack of social instinct or herd feeling. He does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should."
The character was inspired by William Hickman, a murderer.
That's where the roots of Libertarianism lie.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
Dannydoyle
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So forcing the rich to compensate non rich is your solution?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 16:45, critter wrote:
Well there is that...

I am so sick of the whole "the rich are just trying to feed their families. Who cares if they have to screw 10,000 people from Michigan to do it?"

1. Not everybody's sense of decency is for sale. I have quit jobs when I was asked to lie or to take a shortcut around health codes just to get a product out faster.

2. Whose family is going to starve if they don't make 55 billion dollars instead of 45 billion dollars?

These guys obviously have the disposable income to contribute to big public charities if it helps their PR.

You're right, I can't tell them what to do with their money, but why am I wrong to ask that they have a little compassion for their fellow human beings?

The defenders of the corporate elite generally like to cite Ayn Rand. Reagan was certainly a fan. Well, Ayn Rand was a textbook psychopath.
I've read many of her books and a few biographies of her and I know a thing or two about psychology and she matches the diagnosis.
Here's a few traits from Hare's psychopathy checklist and how they relate:
1. Superficial charm, glibness and Grandiosity- The architect from the Fountainhead, the 'great society' from Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand herself
2. Flattened affect (reduced emotion) and 3. Need for stimulation- are both traits used to describe the lead characters in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead
4. Cons and Manipulation and 5. Promiscuous sexual behavior- How about Rand taking a lover on the side while both she and the lover were married and manipulating her husband into accepting it? True story
Other traits are impulsivity (Dagney Taggert,) lack of remorse and callousness (easy ones.)

Here's something that she wrote about an intended hero of a future novel:
"is born with a wonderful, free, light consciousness -- [resulting from] the absolute lack of social instinct or herd feeling. He does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should."
The character was inspired by William Hickman, a murderer.
That's where the roots of Libertarianism lie.


If you place the roots of Libertarianism in the 20th century, you may know a lot about Rand, but you know very little about Libertarianism.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
critter
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Well "they" are the ones who keep the poor... poor. "They" fire Americans to replace them with less capable foreigners which leads to both higher unemployment and shoddier service and products. "They" also made the lending policies that crippled the economy.

So that's OK with you, but a worker wanting to be treated like a person is the bad guy. Got it.

The rich *** us, it's their responsibility to put things right.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 17:32, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 16:45, critter wrote:
Well there is that...

I am so sick of the whole "the rich are just trying to feed their families. Who cares if they have to screw 10,000 people from Michigan to do it?"

1. Not everybody's sense of decency is for sale. I have quit jobs when I was asked to lie or to take a shortcut around health codes just to get a product out faster.

2. Whose family is going to starve if they don't make 55 billion dollars instead of 45 billion dollars?

These guys obviously have the disposable income to contribute to big public charities if it helps their PR.

You're right, I can't tell them what to do with their money, but why am I wrong to ask that they have a little compassion for their fellow human beings?

The defenders of the corporate elite generally like to cite Ayn Rand. Reagan was certainly a fan. Well, Ayn Rand was a textbook psychopath.
I've read many of her books and a few biographies of her and I know a thing or two about psychology and she matches the diagnosis.
Here's a few traits from Hare's psychopathy checklist and how they relate:
1. Superficial charm, glibness and Grandiosity- The architect from the Fountainhead, the 'great society' from Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand herself
2. Flattened affect (reduced emotion) and 3. Need for stimulation- are both traits used to describe the lead characters in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead
4. Cons and Manipulation and 5. Promiscuous sexual behavior- How about Rand taking a lover on the side while both she and the lover were married and manipulating her husband into accepting it? True story
Other traits are impulsivity (Dagney Taggert,) lack of remorse and callousness (easy ones.)

Here's something that she wrote about an intended hero of a future novel:
"is born with a wonderful, free, light consciousness -- [resulting from] the absolute lack of social instinct or herd feeling. He does not understand, because he has no organ for understanding, the necessity, meaning, or importance of other people ... Other people do not exist for him and he does not understand why they should."
The character was inspired by William Hickman, a murderer.
That's where the roots of Libertarianism lie.


If you place the roots of Libertarianism in the 20th century, you may know a lot about Rand, but you know very little about Libertarianism.


Not necessarily. I'm talking the Reagan to modern era version. Modern animals aren't necessarily the same as their historical counterparts.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
mvmagic
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Well, this doesn't really concern me as I am not an American but thought to pitch in to give some perspective on the income tax. Here the income tax varies...depending on how much you make, mortage and such. I was taxed 27% for most part of this year and when I went over my so-called upper limit, my current tax is 42% which is hefty.
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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 17:38, critter wrote:
Well "they" are the ones who keep the poor... poor. "They" fire Americans to replace them with less capable foreigners which leads to both higher unemployment and shoddier service and products. "They" also made the lending policies that crippled the economy.

So that's OK with you, but a worker wanting to be treated like a person is the bad guy. Got it.

The rich *** us, it's their responsibility to put things right.

Interesting perspective. Now where do you stand on immigration and the non legals here now?

Oh was it "they" or congress who made that policy? Think hard and look at fair lending acts and such. It is not quite as easy a solution to blame one group for a very dynamic problem. Yes I admit it is easier to hate them and pin things on them as a single group, THE RICH, BUT it is not so right.

For example how many poor people create jobs? You want to hate a group for the problems and I get that. Ok no problem. Oh and if you hate the rich or the christians you can do it and it is not a hate crime so double cool for you. But does that class warfare nonsense solve problems? Really solving problems with blame and hate is not the best way to go about it. I point to the last 2 years as sort of proof of that.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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