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Davit Sicseek![]() Inner circle 1818 Posts ![]() |
Following on from (the fairly pointless) discussion about the optimal income tax rate, I think it's interesting to consider the role of the state. For my money Philip Bobbitt - consitutional law and security expert, has one of the best takes on it:
Quote:
The kind of constitutional order I refer to when I say ‘the nation state’ is really only a little more then 100 years old. In my country it comes together with Lincoln and the reform of our constitution brought about by the civil war. In Europe it comes in with Bismarck and the change from the imperialist states like Britain and France that dominated the 19th century to the nation states that dominated the 20th. The constitutional order is defined by the promise, the covenant it makes, in exchange for power. It might say ‘give me power because my father had it.’ Right? ‘Give me power because the College of Cardinals has it to give and they’ve elected me.’ Fine. Constitutional order for the 20th century said ‘give us power and we will improve your material well-being.’ FDR said that, Joseph Stalin said it, Lloyd George said it, Adolph Hitler said it – they differed in how they got there. That was the fundamental policy. Actually, from what I have read of Bobbitt, he has mis-spoken in this quote. His usual position is that the system of 'market states' is emerging, not that we currently live in fully developed ones. But, in terms of the states legitimacy stemming from ‘give us power and we will maximise your opportunity - is he right? Of course, the market state requires less taxation - but in order to 'maximise opportunity' will still need to tax. So rather than the contest between nation states of which method of oraganising their states is best (fascism, communism, liberal democracy). In the future I see some potentially interesting developments as the market states compete amongst each other to determine how this opportunity can be best maximised. What level of taxation is the optimal level? How should that money be spent?
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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LobowolfXXX![]() Inner circle La Famiglia 1199 Posts ![]() |
Not another pointless discussion on the optimal tax rate!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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balducci![]() Loyal user Canada 230 Posts ![]() |
Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:13, Davit Sicseek wrote: So market states will take over from nation states? What is a market state in this context, because I'm not clear on the terminology. Is it like the NAFTA group of nations, or the Eurozone?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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tommy![]() Eternal Order Devil’s Island 16355 Posts ![]() |
Notice how we now speak of it as "the state" comrades.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Markymark![]() Inner circle 1627 Posts ![]() |
The role of 'the state' [or taxpayers] seems to be to step in when capitalism goes wrong!!
''In memory of a once fluid man,crammed and distorted by the classical mess'' -Bruce Lee
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Davit Sicseek![]() Inner circle 1818 Posts ![]() |
Quote:
So market states will take over from nation states? What is a market state in this context, because I'm not clear on the terminology. Is it like the NAFTA group of nations, or the Eurozone? Not like NAFTA or Eurozone. He is making the historical point that the character of the state has not always been the same. He claims that there is a symbiotic relationship between the consitutional order (the stype of state) and war. These mutually effect one another, the 'type' of state will determine the type of war and conflict that occurs and in turn the victor of those wars will determine the constitutional order of the following period. He claims that there has been a 'long war' from just before WW1 to 1990 with the fall of the USSR between different types of nation states. The fight was to determine the best way to organise society - communism, fascism or liberal democracy. Liberal democracy became the dominant form. The result of liberal democracy.... Actually, instead of me butchering his argument, this link looks like it will sum it up: http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/bobbitt/qna.html Perhaps the more interesting point is that he considers al Qaeda to be a form of 'market state' - maximising opportunities for it's citizens: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books......eda.html
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
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gdw![]() Inner circle 4827 Posts ![]() |
To protect us from others, but definitely not from ourselves.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." I won't forget you Robert. |
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Jonathan Townsend![]() Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27226 Posts ![]() |
Unincorporated Man/Unincorporated War ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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gdw![]() Inner circle 4827 Posts ![]() |
Well, I'm sure many disagree with me on the role of the state with regards to many regulations. I am of the opinion that the state has no business telling us what we can and cannot do with or own bodies. I think this should extend to anything we wish to do with ourselves, so long as we are not forcing anything on anyone else.
That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat? http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio ![]()
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." I won't forget you Robert. |
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Destiny![]() Inner circle 1429 Posts ![]() |
They are not telling anyone what to eat - she is saying if the government is going to pay for the food - they should pay for good food.
I have no problem with that whatsoever - if you come to my place for dinner, I won't be serving Big Macs. |
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gdw![]() Inner circle 4827 Posts ![]() |
Should the government even be paying for the food in the first place?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." I won't forget you Robert. |
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balducci![]() Loyal user Canada 230 Posts ![]() |
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 10:55, gdw wrote: As Destiny already pointed out, you misunderstood the article. However, besides that, the days when most of us could grow all of our own food or buy it all from local farmers we knew and trusted are long gone. It's good that some agency regulates and oversees the food industry. Or else you would have stories like these happening regularly in the U.S. and Canada: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......als.html http://www.physorg.com/news184484149.html
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Marlin1894![]() Special user 559 Posts ![]() |
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On 2010-12-14 11:02, Destiny wrote: Interesting. She want's to regulate the food in schools, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest restrictions on what can and cannot be purchased with food stamps. Soda, Ice Cream, Chips, TV Dinners etc are all elibible for food stamps. If health and obesity are issues for the taxpayer because of potential higher health care costs, and lower health of people in general, and if the taxpayers are paying for the food... Shouldn't they pay for good food? Try floating that one out there and see what happens. |
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Dannydoyle![]() Eternal Order 20867 Posts ![]() |
Umm not so long gone. I live in a part of the country where you can still have a butcher show up in a special truck and butcher a hog, cow or whatever for you. Many local farms for dairy as well as for veggies. It is not that tough to do in many parts of America still.
P.S. The food tastes better that way!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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balducci![]() Loyal user Canada 230 Posts ![]() |
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, Marlin1894 wrote: There are already some restrictions on the use of food stamps. But I guess you are talking more about this: http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/104511969.html http://www.associatedcontent.com/article......l?cat=49
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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balducci![]() Loyal user Canada 230 Posts ![]() |
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:33, Dannydoyle wrote: I understand, but for many people (I suspect most, though I have no figures to back that up - I am thinking about people living downtown in large urban centers) it is not really doable. Perhaps as a treat once in a while they can visit a 'local' farm (which might be an hour or two away), but I think not very often for most urban dwellers. Much of our food now comes from large production factory farms, which are typically located quite a distance from most big cities. Where I live, there is one guy who was recently in the news for having a truck operation like you describe. And it was big news, because he is the only one around.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Dannydoyle![]() Eternal Order 20867 Posts ![]() |
Absolutely I agree. In large population concentrations it may be VERY tough to do. And you did qualify you first post with "most of us", so I was not trying to set you right, just giving an example of the rest of us. Sorry if it was confusing.
I also agree, the FDA is a good thing to have around.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Ray Tupper.![]() Special user NG16. 749 Posts ![]() |
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On 2010-12-14 11:41, balducci wrote: I've worked just over the road from this place.It's a traditional butchers,just off Berkeley square in Mayfair,London. I don't know how they butcher their online sales,but the shop is as traditional as you can get. It can be done,with a bit of nous. http://www.allensofmayfair.co.uk/
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes! When do we want it? C*nt! |
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gdw![]() Inner circle 4827 Posts ![]() |
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, balducci wrote: From the second article: "[this] highlights the challenges of policing the food supply in a country where close ties between local authorities and companies hamper regulation . . ." Does this not describe EXACTLY what goes on with pretty much all attempts to regulate things in north america? Though the ties are not {just} on the local level, but far more entrenched on the federal level. For those thinking the FDA is a GOOD thing, (and standards ARE good, the problem comes from a centralized organization that is not directly accountable to the customers, and thus very easily put in the pockets of those they are supposed to be "regulating") how about the FDA trying to stop e-cigarettes? A virtually harmless alternative to regular cigarettes, and the organization meant to keep such things "safe" seems to be doing everything they can to stop them from being available.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.
"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." I won't forget you Robert. |
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balducci![]() Loyal user Canada 230 Posts ![]() |
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On 2010-12-14 12:25, gdw wrote: No. Not really. If it were, we would have the same scandals as often as in China. In fact, here it is quite the opposite. E.g., if they find salmonella present in a single bag of lettuce here the entire production gets shut down and all the product pulled from shelves in a matter of hours. Companies here are not "coddled" when they violate safety standards or regulations (for the most part).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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