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Davit Sicseek
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Following on from (the fairly pointless) discussion about the optimal income tax rate, I think it's interesting to consider the role of the state. For my money Philip Bobbitt - consitutional law and security expert, has one of the best takes on it:

Quote:
The kind of constitutional order I refer to when I say ‘the nation state’ is really only a little more then 100 years old. In my country it comes together with Lincoln and the reform of our constitution brought about by the civil war. In Europe it comes in with Bismarck and the change from the imperialist states like Britain and France that dominated the 19th century to the nation states that dominated the 20th. The constitutional order is defined by the promise, the covenant it makes, in exchange for power. It might say ‘give me power because my father had it.’ Right? ‘Give me power because the College of Cardinals has it to give and they’ve elected me.’ Fine. Constitutional order for the 20th century said ‘give us power and we will improve your material well-being.’ FDR said that, Joseph Stalin said it, Lloyd George said it, Adolph Hitler said it – they differed in how they got there. That was the fundamental policy.

We live in market states; we don’t live in nation states now. And I think you can see a transition beginning from the kind of constitutional order we had in the 20th century into a new form in the 21st century, and these are the reasons why, or a few of the reasons why:

A global system of communications that prevents any nation state from governing its culture, because it penetrates every society.

An international system and trade and finance that prevents any state from determining the value of international currency.

A system of international human rights that pre-empts any state’s national laws. The reason why Milosovich was tried was not because he violated Yugoslav or Serbian law.

Transnational threats like AIDS and SARS or climate change
And terrorism itself, that no state can hide from, and it leapfrogs national borders no matter what you do.

And finally the commodification of weapons of mass destruction, where crucial components can either be sold or bartered on the clandestine market or simply downloaded from the internet, a DNA starter-kit.

And the sort of signature, the trace, where you might see a trace in a cloud (…) to see what an electron does, the traces of this new order I believe you can see even today. You can see it here in Britain. When states go from reliance on law and regulation so characteristic of the nation state to deregulating not only industries but also women’s reproduction. When they move from conscription to an all-volunteer force, when states … you saw the top-up fees for college tuitions, you see it in America with welfare reform, when we go from direct transfers and workmen’s compensation to providing skills to enter the labour market, in all of these instances you are seeing the beginnings of a change in which the state says ‘give us power and we will maximise your opportunity. What you do with it that’s up to you. We will not assure you quality and we will not assure you steadily improving security, but the total wealth of the society will be maximised by these steps and that will improve opportunity.’ Now different cultures will do this differently. Some will have thicker safety nets then others, some will act in regions as Europe well may, others will be more entrepreneurial and act individually. And over time states may try more then one way of being a market state. But that’s the basic concept, and it’s a concept that Robert Cooper calls a post-modern state, people call it other things, but it rests upon the fundamental idea that the nation state has died but the state is doing very well thank you and has no intention of going away.


Actually, from what I have read of Bobbitt, he has mis-spoken in this quote. His usual position is that the system of 'market states' is emerging, not that we currently live in fully developed ones.

But, in terms of the states legitimacy stemming from ‘give us power and we will maximise your opportunity - is he right?

Of course, the market state requires less taxation - but in order to 'maximise opportunity' will still need to tax. So rather than the contest between nation states of which method of oraganising their states is best (fascism, communism, liberal democracy). In the future I see some potentially interesting developments as the market states compete amongst each other to determine how this opportunity can be best maximised. What level of taxation is the optimal level? How should that money be spent?
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LobowolfXXX
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Not another pointless discussion on the optimal tax rate!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-13 18:13, Davit Sicseek wrote:

But, in terms of the states legitimacy stemming from ‘give us power and we will maximise your opportunity - is he right?

Of course, the market state requires less taxation - but in order to 'maximise opportunity' will still need to tax. So rather than the contest between nation states of which method of oraganising their states is best (fascism, communism, liberal democracy). In the future I see some potentially interesting developments as the market states compete amongst each other to determine how this opportunity can be best maximised. What level of taxation is the optimal level? How should that money be spent?

So market states will take over from nation states? What is a market state in this context, because I'm not clear on the terminology. Is it like the NAFTA group of nations, or the Eurozone?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
tommy
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Notice how we now speak of it as "the state" comrades.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Markymark
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The role of 'the state' [or taxpayers] seems to be to step in when capitalism goes wrong!!
''In memory of a once fluid man,crammed and distorted by the classical mess'' -Bruce Lee
Davit Sicseek
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Quote:
So market states will take over from nation states? What is a market state in this context, because I'm not clear on the terminology. Is it like the NAFTA group of nations, or the Eurozone?


Not like NAFTA or Eurozone. He is making the historical point that the character of the state has not always been the same. He claims that there is a symbiotic relationship between the consitutional order (the stype of state) and war. These mutually effect one another, the 'type' of state will determine the type of war and conflict that occurs and in turn the victor of those wars will determine the constitutional order of the following period. He claims that there has been a 'long war' from just before WW1 to 1990 with the fall of the USSR between different types of nation states. The fight was to determine the best way to organise society - communism, fascism or liberal democracy. Liberal democracy became the dominant form. The result of liberal democracy....

Actually, instead of me butchering his argument, this link looks like it will sum it up:
http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/authors/bobbitt/qna.html

Perhaps the more interesting point is that he considers al Qaeda to be a form of 'market state' - maximising opportunities for it's citizens:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books......eda.html
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gdw
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To protect us from others, but definitely not from ourselves.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

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Jonathan Townsend
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Unincorporated Man/Unincorporated War ?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
gdw
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Well, I'm sure many disagree with me on the role of the state with regards to many regulations. I am of the opinion that the state has no business telling us what we can and cannot do with or own bodies. I think this should extend to anything we wish to do with ourselves, so long as we are not forcing anything on anyone else.

That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat?


http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio

Smile
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Destiny
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They are not telling anyone what to eat - she is saying if the government is going to pay for the food - they should pay for good food.

I have no problem with that whatsoever - if you come to my place for dinner, I won't be serving Big Macs.
gdw
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Should the government even be paying for the food in the first place?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 10:55, gdw wrote:

That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio

As Destiny already pointed out, you misunderstood the article.

However, besides that, the days when most of us could grow all of our own food or buy it all from local farmers we knew and trusted are long gone. It's good that some agency regulates and oversees the food industry. Or else you would have stories like these happening regularly in the U.S. and Canada:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......als.html

http://www.physorg.com/news184484149.html
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Marlin1894
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:02, Destiny wrote:
she is saying if the government is going to pay for the food - they should pay for good food.


Interesting. She want's to regulate the food in schools, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest restrictions on what can and cannot be purchased with food stamps. Soda, Ice Cream, Chips, TV Dinners etc are all elibible for food stamps. If health and obesity are issues for the taxpayer because of potential higher health care costs, and lower health of people in general, and if the taxpayers are paying for the food... Shouldn't they pay for good food?

Try floating that one out there and see what happens.
Dannydoyle
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Umm not so long gone. I live in a part of the country where you can still have a butcher show up in a special truck and butcher a hog, cow or whatever for you. Many local farms for dairy as well as for veggies. It is not that tough to do in many parts of America still.

P.S. The food tastes better that way!
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balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, Marlin1894 wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:02, Destiny wrote:
she is saying if the government is going to pay for the food - they should pay for good food.


Interesting. She want's to regulate the food in schools, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest restrictions on what can and cannot be purchased with food stamps. Soda, Ice Cream, Chips, TV Dinners etc are all elibible for food stamps. If health and obesity are issues for the taxpayer because of potential higher health care costs, and lower health of people in general, and if the taxpayers are paying for the food... Shouldn't they pay for good food?

Try floating that one out there and see what happens.

There are already some restrictions on the use of food stamps. But I guess you are talking more about this:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/104511969.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article......l?cat=49
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:33, Dannydoyle wrote:

Umm not so long gone. I live in a part of the country where you can still have a butcher show up in a special truck and butcher a hog, cow or whatever for you. Many local farms for dairy as well as for veggies. It is not that tough to do in many parts of America still.

I understand, but for many people (I suspect most, though I have no figures to back that up - I am thinking about people living downtown in large urban centers) it is not really doable. Perhaps as a treat once in a while they can visit a 'local' farm (which might be an hour or two away), but I think not very often for most urban dwellers. Much of our food now comes from large production factory farms, which are typically located quite a distance from most big cities. Where I live, there is one guy who was recently in the news for having a truck operation like you describe. And it was big news, because he is the only one around.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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Absolutely I agree. In large population concentrations it may be VERY tough to do. And you did qualify you first post with "most of us", so I was not trying to set you right, just giving an example of the rest of us. Sorry if it was confusing.

I also agree, the FDA is a good thing to have around.
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:41, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:33, Dannydoyle wrote:

Umm not so long gone. I live in a part of the country where you can still have a butcher show up in a special truck and butcher a hog, cow or whatever for you. Many local farms for dairy as well as for veggies. It is not that tough to do in many parts of America still.

I understand, but for many people (I suspect most, though I have no figures to back that up - I am thinking about people living downtown in large urban centers) it is not really doable. Perhaps as a treat once in a while they can visit a 'local' farm (which might be an hour or two away), but I think not very often for most urban dwellers. Much of our food now comes from large production factory farms, which are typically located quite a distance from most big cities. Where I live, there is one guy who was recently in the news for having a truck operation like you describe. And it was big news, because he is the only one around.

I've worked just over the road from this place.It's a traditional butchers,just off Berkeley square in Mayfair,London.
I don't know how they butcher their online sales,but the shop is as traditional as you can get.
It can be done,with a bit of nous.
http://www.allensofmayfair.co.uk/
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 10:55, gdw wrote:

That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio

As Destiny already pointed out, you misunderstood the article.

However, besides that, the days when most of us could grow all of our own food or buy it all from local farmers we knew and trusted are long gone. It's good that some agency regulates and oversees the food industry. Or else you would have stories like these happening regularly in the U.S. and Canada:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......als.html

http://www.physorg.com/news184484149.html


From the second article:
"[this] highlights the challenges of policing the food supply in a country where close ties between local authorities and companies hamper regulation . . ."

Does this not describe EXACTLY what goes on with pretty much all attempts to regulate things in north america? Though the ties are not {just} on the local level, but far more entrenched on the federal level.

For those thinking the FDA is a GOOD thing, (and standards ARE good, the problem comes from a centralized organization that is not directly accountable to the customers, and thus very easily put in the pockets of those they are supposed to be "regulating") how about the FDA trying to stop e-cigarettes? A virtually harmless alternative to regular cigarettes, and the organization meant to keep such things "safe" seems to be doing everything they can to stop them from being available.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 12:25, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 10:55, gdw wrote:

That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio

As Destiny already pointed out, you misunderstood the article.

However, besides that, the days when most of us could grow all of our own food or buy it all from local farmers we knew and trusted are long gone. It's good that some agency regulates and oversees the food industry. Or else you would have stories like these happening regularly in the U.S. and Canada:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......als.html

http://www.physorg.com/news184484149.html


From the second article:
"[this] highlights the challenges of policing the food supply in a country where close ties between local authorities and companies hamper regulation . . ."

Does this not describe EXACTLY what goes on with pretty much all attempts to regulate things in north america? Though the ties are not {just} on the local level, but far more entrenched on the federal level.

No. Not really. If it were, we would have the same scandals as often as in China. In fact, here it is quite the opposite. E.g., if they find salmonella present in a single bag of lettuce here the entire production gets shut down and all the product pulled from shelves in a matter of hours. Companies here are not "coddled" when they violate safety standards or regulations (for the most part).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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