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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » The role of the state - the "market state" (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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EsnRedshirt
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On 2010-12-14 11:16, gdw wrote:
Should the government even be paying for the food in the first place?

Probably not, at least in my opinion. We heavily subsidize a lot of crops- especially corn- which is why everything in America seems to use high fructose corn syrup; due to the subsidies, it's really, really cheap. Of course, the alternative is less taxes, but higher food prices. Or, maybe, the food companies would use less sweetener in their products. Or not- the extra sugar and salt is what keeps customers buying their products. (And why we as a nation seem so addicted to fattening foods.)

Then again, those low food prices also help the poorest citizens put food on their table (even if it isn't necessarily the healthiest food.)
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EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 12:29, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 12:25, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 10:55, gdw wrote:

That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio

As Destiny already pointed out, you misunderstood the article.

However, besides that, the days when most of us could grow all of our own food or buy it all from local farmers we knew and trusted are long gone. It's good that some agency regulates and oversees the food industry. Or else you would have stories like these happening regularly in the U.S. and Canada:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......als.html

http://www.physorg.com/news184484149.html


From the second article:
"[this] highlights the challenges of policing the food supply in a country where close ties between local authorities and companies hamper regulation . . ."

Does this not describe EXACTLY what goes on with pretty much all attempts to regulate things in north america? Though the ties are not {just} on the local level, but far more entrenched on the federal level.

No. Not really. If it were, we would have the same scandals as often as in China. In fact, here it is quite the opposite. E.g., if they find salmonella present in a single bag of lettuce here the entire production gets shut down and all the product pulled from shelves in a matter of hours. Companies here are not "coddled" when they violate safety standards or regulations (for the most part).
balducci, from my understanding, those recalls are voluntary.

Of course, in China, when companies are caught violating safety standards, the person responsible is often executed- and any further discussion of the violations quickly vanish from the press...
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 12:29, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 12:25, gdw wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 10:55, gdw wrote:

That being said, I imagine many WOULD agree that, to a point, the state should not be telling us what we can and cannot do with ourselves. Does anyone think the state should be the one's telling us what we can and cannot eat?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michelle......nutritio

As Destiny already pointed out, you misunderstood the article.

However, besides that, the days when most of us could grow all of our own food or buy it all from local farmers we knew and trusted are long gone. It's good that some agency regulates and oversees the food industry. Or else you would have stories like these happening regularly in the U.S. and Canada:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew......als.html

http://www.physorg.com/news184484149.html


From the second article:
"[this] highlights the challenges of policing the food supply in a country where close ties between local authorities and companies hamper regulation . . ."

Does this not describe EXACTLY what goes on with pretty much all attempts to regulate things in north america? Though the ties are not {just} on the local level, but far more entrenched on the federal level.

No. Not really. If it were, we would have the same scandals as often as in China. In fact, here it is quite the opposite. E.g., if they find salmonella present in a single bag of lettuce here the entire production gets shut down and all the product pulled from shelves in a matter of hours. Companies here are not "coddled" when they violate safety standards or regulations (for the most part).


I think ensredshirt answered quite well.

I just want to add an example of recalls and how deceptive they can be. Remember the recent recall of Shrek cups from McDonald's? I'm sure this sounds like a great example of things WORKING. Well, there's a good bit more to it than most are aware. First off, the cadmium concerns extend well beyond just the Shrek glasses that were recalled. In fact, pretty much ALL novelty glasses had levels of cadmium and/or lead that warranted concern.

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_29714.php

Some interesting things mentioned in the article:

"The New Jersey manufacturer of those glasses said in June that the products were made according to standard industry practices, which includes the routine use of cadmium to create red and similar colors."

"Federal regulators will decide whether the superhero and Oz glasses are "children's products" and thus subject to strict lead limits; if U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission staffers conclude the glasses to fall outside that definition, the lead levels would be legal."

That last statement, IMHO, shows the bs that comes with government regulations. 'We have to decide whether or not we'll call these "children's products" or not.'

That's not to say there isn't a fair amount of similar BS from the companies. "Our glasses are intended for adults" but advertising says "a perfect way to serve cold drinks to your children or guests." Then again, would they be playing these semantics games if there weren't trying to deal with the "rules" of the government regulator's games? One's that the regulator's themselves, as shown in the previous quote, are not even clear about what qualifies?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

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balducci
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GDW and EsnRedshirt ... Well, not quite. Some recalls are voluntary and firm initiated. Some are FDA initiated, or initiated by other agencies.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gdw
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Yet another example of the "effectiveness" of government run regulation organizations:

http://www.fastcompany.com/1708896/wiki-......esticide
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Magnus Eisengrim
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GDW, your examples are about as persuasive as "some people ingest poison, which proves that you should never eat."

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
gdw
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You know, I really don't see how people can complain that the government and corporations are so deeply entwined in bed together and then say the solution is more government regulation. Government regulation necessitates government get involved with business, which is exactly how business and state got so entangled to begin with.

Yes, the state gets involved with the intention of controlling the corporations, but, given the corporations are the ones with the money, it just results in corporations controlling the government through lobbying. That's why the majority of regulations don't do anything to "control" big business, but rather only create barriers to entry for competition, and the corporations are the one's that get to pull the strings of said barriers.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
critter
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:29, Marlin1894 wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:02, Destiny wrote:
she is saying if the government is going to pay for the food - they should pay for good food.


Interesting. She want's to regulate the food in schools, but I have yet to hear anyone suggest restrictions on what can and cannot be purchased with food stamps. Soda, Ice Cream, Chips, TV Dinners etc are all elibible for food stamps. If health and obesity are issues for the taxpayer because of potential higher health care costs, and lower health of people in general, and if the taxpayers are paying for the food... Shouldn't they pay for good food?

Try floating that one out there and see what happens.


That must be a state thing because around here you can't buy soft drinks, energy drinks, or prepared food with the stamps.
WIC is even more restrictive.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2010-12-14 11:02, Destiny wrote:
They are not telling anyone what to eat - she is saying if the government is going to pay for the food - they should pay for good food.

I have no problem with that whatsoever - if you come to my place for dinner, I won't be serving Big Macs.


They are talking about controlling what is in the vending machines. If I'm not mistaken, those contain food sold to the students, which would mean the STUDENTS are the ones paying for it. Or more likely their parents.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
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