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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Aronson from ND? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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greydonthemagician
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Has this ever been worked out? Or in the process of being accomplished?
I'm referring to Aronson from new deck order...
Regards,
Greydon
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Doug McKenzie
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Riffle shuffle, check, repeat.
Damon Zale
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Quote:
On 2010-12-15 14:39, Doug McKenzie wrote:
Riffle shuffle, check, repeat.

lol, do it 80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883277824000000000000 times and you will hit AS at some point
JanForster
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No, and why?? Jan
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greydonthemagician
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Why not?
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Damon Zale
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I am guessing Jan meant what your motivation for needing to go from NDO to AS was. For instance if you think opening a new box and shuffling is convincing, why not re-seal Aronoson stack in a box? Then you open that box , false shuffle and viola - you can even add insult to injury and spread the cards to show how random they look:)

But if your motivation is a friend who sometimes buys new decks and hands them to you saying "please show me a memorized deck trick" then you are of out of luck [OR do a DS].
greydonthemagician
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I know that Aronson created his stack with a mathematical basis but does that therefore mean his stack can not be attained through NDO?
I would disagree, just because it has not been attempted does not mean it is not possible. My motivation is purely for self satisfaction and was curious to know if such a method existed. I was merely pondering the idea and have been playing around with "Stackview" to see if such an outcome exists. I wanted to hear your thoughts on the idea or if I should leave well enough alone...

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Greydon
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Damon Zale
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It doesn't have a mathematical basis.

Surely a convoluted way exists, but an easy way (that would be easier to remember then learning a new stack), like by misplacing some cards, faro etc (something that will last less then a minute and look like a shuffle) would be very lucky coincidence indeed if it existed. But hey, anything's possible. As good a way to keep your intellectual curiosity satisfied as any. Someone earlier had tried writing a computer program that would search for NDO to AS, might want to dig up that thread.
JanForster
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Dimazales, that's exactly what I was trying to say in brief Smile Greydon, in the real world the fact that you could gain a memorized stack from NDO is simply quite irrelevant. Really in nearly 20 years using the Aronson stack I never needed it. Jan
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Steven Youell
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Greydon, in the real world the fact that you could gain a memorized stack from NDO is extremely helpful. Really in over 20 years of using this type of stack, I've taken advantage of it more times than I can count. In fact, I have several effects that actually depend on this.

Personally, I would prefer ANY stack with this trait over any stack that doesn't have this trait.

SEY
greydonthemagician
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My apologies I meant to say without a mathematical basis. I would agree with Steven that being able to get into stack from NDO working would be an advantage. It's not to say I would use the method, it would just be handy to have. I really just wanted to get thoughts so thank you.

I have worked Aronson just fine myself, but for magicians sake was curious. I'll try and find that post!
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Damon Zale
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I also agree with Steven that it would be nifty, I was just saying its unlikely to be doable with Aronson stack but if there was a way it would be awesome. I personally envy more the other way, Mnemonica -> NDO for example.
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2010-12-16 18:41, greydonthemagician wrote:
My apologies I meant to say without a mathematical basis. I would agree with Steven that being able to get into stack from NDO working would be an advantage. It's not to say I would use the method, it would just be handy to have. I really just wanted to get thoughts so thank you.

That's simple to develop if you use your own stack.

Experiment with a shuffle sequence/faros until you get something that looks random enough for you but doesn't look like you're shuffling the deck to death.

It's true you won't have the built in effects, but there are advantages that compensate for that.

SEY
Dennis Loomis
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Some consider New Deck Order to be a kind of Holy Grail. Certainly Lenert Green gets a strong reaction when after several different card effects, he shows that he has somehow gotten the deck into this order. And the ease in getting from New Deck Order to your stack is a big advantage to some.

However, I've never used the effect of getting the cards into order except when I have done the Bob Farmer Card Walloper routine. And, I don't often have to build my Aronson stack from a new deck. I keep a deck in Aronson stack order for practicing just about all the time.

The other thing is that the New Deck Order varies in the United States and Europe. The order in which the cards come out of the box in the United States in not ready to go into the Ortiz method for setting the Si Stebbins stack. You must reverse the order of 26 cards first, which means it's not as fast as you may have been thinking.

Still, Steve Youell is, by all reports, a fine performer and gets great results from using his Hacker Stack.

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Doug McKenzie
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US NDO does not need reversing for Si Stebbins secret as far as I can remember.
murrari
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Of course there MUST be advantages of being able to get in to a 'stack' from NDO.

However, there is no such method available for Aronson stack. I have experimented with this ida for many years and have never been able to come up with a satisfactory solution.

However, imagine you gave a sealed deck to a spectator, they opened it, saw NDO, shuffled it to their hearts content and then at any moment you could perform a miracle with your 'stack'....

SOLUTION?

A deck switch!

I have used a switch more times than I care to remember and have a couple of unpublished methods that defy detection (at any rate I have used them for years, amongst knowledgable magicians, and the switch has never been suspected).
I recently spent some time with Benjamin Earl discussing deck switches (amongst other things) and there are so many variations (boxed and unboxed) that are under-utilised by magicians.... (I can recommend Gambit 2 for an excellent 'unboxed' switch)

There are always solutions to a problem ... sometimes we need to think around the problem to come up with satisfactory alternatives.

AM
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Dennis Loomis
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To Doug,
I just went back and checked on the details of the Si Stebbins Secret. As part of this you over hand shuffle running 26 cards. This is exactly what I said, you have to reverse the order of half the deck. As a kind of misdirection you break that run into 4 short runs, running 7, then running 6, then running 4 and finally running 9. You are then ready to do the two faros which will stack the cards. With a deck in European New Deck Order you would not have to do this reversing or running of the cards.

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Doug McKenzie
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To Dennis,
This isn't actually reversing 26 cards. When you do this 7-6-4-9 sequence, the cards are more than just reversed as you are dropping the groups before you continue with the next overhand shuffle sequence. With a European NDO, there would be a different shuffle sequence to get to the same point. The shuffle isn't broken down into 4 runs because of a need for misdirection, its broken down into 4 runs as that is a required order needed before the 2 faro shuffles. There is another small part to SSS before the overhand shuffle, but I won't add that to this discussion as it is irrelevant.

Doug
Dennis Loomis
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Doug,
I guess we are down to a matter of semantics. The process of "running" cards does reverse the order of the Hearts and Clubs, but in addition each of those suits is cut at the location needed to interlace the cards properly with the faros to achieve the Si Stebbins stack.
Dennis Loomis
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Doug McKenzie
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Exactly ... From your first post it sounded like you needed to reverse the 26 cards before starting the SSS 7-6-4-9 process, just as you would need to reverse US NDO cards to shuffle into mnemonica.
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