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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » New to magic? » » Help please! Elmsey Count (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Lliam
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Hey
I guess I'm a little late to help you out but I thought I should suggest this anyways. My Elmsley count was awful until I found out this way of doing it. It's called the Paradise Elmsley Count. It's in Gary Ouellets book "Close up Illusions". The books a little pricey but it's worth it. It also teaches how to apply the paradise method in other ways such as the Jordan Count, 2/4 Count, Ascanio Spread, and more. I highly recomend it! It helped my false counts a lot! Hope this helps.
Lliam
domf
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OK thanks, Lliam!

Best
Dom
jhudsy
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Late to the discussion, but I found that Bill Malone's 3rd "On the Loose" dvd provides a quick, but very good description of the count.
Perseus Arkomanis
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And just for the history it WAS a typing error...let me see you type some Greek...heheheheh...just kidding!
Take care all!
The things that are most real to me are the illusions which I create...everything else is quicksand...
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<BR>www.perseusmagic.com
Jaxon
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On top of all the suggestions you've already gotten here. I'll add what I think is the most common mistake I see made when performing the Elmsley count. I know I use to make this mistake too. So I hope you'll be one of the few who really use this advice before this bad habit forms.

I'll assume that if you're right handed you'll start by holding the cards in your right hand then the left hand will take a card one at a time as you count them into your right hand. This is where the mistakes usually occur. I call this mistake the "put and take" mistake. The give and take happens when they start out with your left hand TAKING one card at a time. But then after the secret move they switch and the right hand PUTS the rest of the cards into the left hand. This switch results in an unnatural action and flow of the move.

If you hand someone a small stack of cards or dollar bills and ask them to count them (Assuming they don't use a table). They'll hold them in one hand and the other hand will pull them off one at a time as they count. This is the action the Elmsley count duplicates and it's all your spectators should assume you are doing. They will not PUT a few in the other hand then TAKE a few with the other hand. The hand holding them in the beginning will not move. The TAKING hand will be the only hand that moves.

So basically when you're doing the Elmsley count only move the hand that is taking the cards one at a time. Some will argue that they'll still see the cards they are suppose to see and not see the ones they are not suppose to see. But still, the hand switch looks a little fishy.

The other mistake that I see is common is they'll sometimes switch fingers that grip the card underneath during the secret move. I'm talking about the card that is secretly added back to the first pile. A common mistake is to switch the fingers that grip this returned card (Usually between middle and index fingers). So you end up with this big break there and the last card counted is seen being held between the middle and ring finger. There's no way the card would end up in that position if you where really just "counting them". So don't change grips.

I hope this all makes sense and is helpful. Trust me, it's better to not form these habits in the first place then to have to go back and relearn the move again later like I did.

Ron Jaxon
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After regaining my ability to hear after 20 years of deafness. I learned that there is magic all around you. The simplest sounds that amazed me you probably ignore. Look and listen around you right now. You'll find something you didn't notice before.
Cyberqat
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Actually, I did a little experiment and I slight disagree.

The most natural motion for me with three cards in my hand is two takes and a put. Which is to say I peel the first card with my right hand, peel the second car with my right hand, and then drop the third on top of the other two already in my right hand with my left.

Unfortunately that changes the order which generally isn't what Im looking for so I need to do it as 3 takes.

But it isn't the most natural motion. At least not for me.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
Jaxon
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That's the exact same reply I get every time I teach this. Here's my suggestion. Keep what you said in mind as you watch a video of yourself doing the move. What is out of place?

Why is there a change between (to use your words) The "take" and the "peal". For what reason does the change from natural to unnatural action occur?

I realize an unnatural action, under the right condition and set up, can become "natural". Where is that condition here?

PS - I love a logical debate with someone who's logical. LOL

Ron Jaxon
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After regaining my ability to hear after 20 years of deafness. I learned that there is magic all around you. The simplest sounds that amazed me you probably ignore. Look and listen around you right now. You'll find something you didn't notice before.
Johnny Butterfield
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I heard that Alex Elmsley had four wives, but you only ever saw three of them.
The current economic crisis is due to all the coins I've vanished.
The poster formerly known as Fman111.
Cyberqat
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Quote:
On 2010-12-22 02:03, Jaxon wrote:
That's the exact same reply I get every time I teach this. Here's my suggestion. Keep what you said in mind as you watch a video of yourself doing the move. What is out of place?

Why is there a change between (to use your words) The "take" and the "peal". For what reason does the change from natural to unnatural action occur?

I realize an unnatural action, under the right condition and set up, can become "natural". Where is that condition here?

PS - I love a logical debate with someone who's logical. LOL

Ron Jaxon


I confused the terms, sorry, "take" and "peel' are the same thing, which is pulling the top card off the stack in the left (or two when we do the move) with the right hand. I think my most natural behavior is to "take" both when doing the top card and doing the move. Its that bottom card that feels more natural as a "put".

But I agree 3 takes "look better." As much as we talk about naturalness, we do sometimes do things that are slightly unnatural because they are "stagey" or "showy."
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
MagicMason
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"I heard that Alex Elmsley had four wives, but you only ever saw three of them." Fman111

THAT is funny!

Tom
Jaxon
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Good Points Cyberqat.

That is pretty funny Fman111. Perhaps we could only see the back of her (groan). Smile

Ron Jaxon
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After regaining my ability to hear after 20 years of deafness. I learned that there is magic all around you. The simplest sounds that amazed me you probably ignore. Look and listen around you right now. You'll find something you didn't notice before.
domf
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Quote:
On 2010-12-21 20:45, Jaxon wrote:
On top of all the suggestions you've already gotten here. I'll add what I think is the most common mistake I see made when performing the Elmsley count. I know I use to make this mistake too. So I hope you'll be one of the few who really use this advice before this bad habit forms.

I'll assume that if you're right handed you'll start by holding the cards in your right hand then the left hand will take a card one at a time as you count them into your right hand. This is where the mistakes usually occur. I call this mistake the "put and take" mistake. The give and take happens when they start out with your left hand TAKING one card at a time. But then after the secret move they switch and the right hand PUTS the rest of the cards into the left hand. This switch results in an unnatural action and flow of the move.

If you hand someone a small stack of cards or dollar bills and ask them to count them (Assuming they don't use a table). They'll hold them in one hand and the other hand will pull them off one at a time as they count. This is the action the Elmsley count duplicates and it's all your spectators should assume you are doing. They will not PUT a few in the other hand then TAKE a few with the other hand. The hand holding them in the beginning will not move. The TAKING hand will be the only hand that moves.

So basically when you're doing the Elmsley count only move the hand that is taking the cards one at a time. Some will argue that they'll still see the cards they are suppose to see and not see the ones they are not suppose to see. But still, the hand switch looks a little fishy.

The other mistake that I see is common is they'll sometimes switch fingers that grip the card underneath during the secret move. I'm talking about the card that is secretly added back to the first pile. A common mistake is to switch the fingers that grip this returned card (Usually between middle and index fingers). So you end up with this big break there and the last card counted is seen being held between the middle and ring finger. There's no way the card would end up in that position if you where really just "counting them". So don't change grips.

I hope this all makes sense and is helpful. Trust me, it's better to not form these habits in the first place then to have to go back and relearn the move again later like I did.

Ron Jaxon


Thanks, Ron.

This is a great advice. I am right handed but my right hand keep the packet and the left hand is moving, taking one card at at time and keeping them. Is it what you meant?

Best
Dom Smile
Perseus Arkomanis
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MagicMason
I personally bought the Alex Elmsley Dvd Set but I couldn't manage to watch the 3rd one...but I saw the 1st one twice!hahahahahah
The things that are most real to me are the illusions which I create...everything else is quicksand...
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<BR>www.perseusmagic.com
jason4vu
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I have been working on the Elmsley count a lot lately due to trying to learn the reswindled routine on TA set. My two main problems are taking the first card clean without disturbing the remaining cards, and also when I take the 3 cards as one on the second part of the move they tend to not always be perfectly square. At speed it doesn't look too bad, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips for keeping the cards more square during the count. Thanks
domf
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Hi Jason4vu,

Welcome to the Magic Café! Smile

I also have the same problem sometimes, ie: my cards are not perfectly squared all the time. Any tips would be appreciated.

Best
Dom
Jaxon
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Quote:
On 2010-12-22 20:17, domf wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-12-21 20:45, Jaxon wrote:
On top of all the suggestions you've already gotten here. I'll add what I think is the most common mistake I see made when performing the Elmsley count. I know I use to make this mistake too. So I hope you'll be one of the few who really use this advice before this bad habit forms.

I'll assume that if you're right handed you'll start by holding the cards in your right hand then the left hand will take a card one at a time as you count them into your right hand. This is where the mistakes usually occur. I call this mistake the "put and take" mistake. The give and take happens when they start out with your left hand TAKING one card at a time. But then after the secret move they switch and the right hand PUTS the rest of the cards into the left hand. This switch results in an unnatural action and flow of the move.

If you hand someone a small stack of cards or dollar bills and ask them to count them (Assuming they don't use a table). They'll hold them in one hand and the other hand will pull them off one at a time as they count. This is the action the Elmsley count duplicates and it's all your spectators should assume you are doing. They will not PUT a few in the other hand then TAKE a few with the other hand. The hand holding them in the beginning will not move. The TAKING hand will be the only hand that moves.

So basically when you're doing the Elmsley count only move the hand that is taking the cards one at a time. Some will argue that they'll still see the cards they are suppose to see and not see the ones they are not suppose to see. But still, the hand switch looks a little fishy.

The other mistake that I see is common is they'll sometimes switch fingers that grip the card underneath during the secret move. I'm talking about the card that is secretly added back to the first pile. A common mistake is to switch the fingers that grip this returned card (Usually between middle and index fingers). So you end up with this big break there and the last card counted is seen being held between the middle and ring finger. There's no way the card would end up in that position if you where really just "counting them". So don't change grips.

I hope this all makes sense and is helpful. Trust me, it's better to not form these habits in the first place then to have to go back and relearn the move again later like I did.

Ron Jaxon


Thanks, Ron.

This is a great advice. I am right handed but my right hand keep the packet and the left hand is moving, taking one card at at time and keeping them. Is it what you meant?

Best
Dom Smile


Yes, Just keep in your mind that all you are apparently doing is counting the cards as you show them one at a time and it should all work out.

As for the issue of the cards not staying aligned. They should be but they don't have to be perfect. As long as they don't look unnaturally angled if that makes sense.

Practice holding three cards in one hand and pushing off the top two cards as one. Then just push off the top single card. I do this back and forth. I push off the top two (Aligned) and take them into my other hand. But them back below the pile then this time just push off the top single card. Put it back below the pile and start all over. So you do a repetition of pushing off two, then one, then two, then one and so forth. As you push them off you shouldn't "See" a difference between pushing off the single or the double. When you get good at it it'll just look like you have two cards instead of three that you're switching from hand to hand. This is how did it during my practice sessions anyway. And moves like this can be practiced any time you're doing something that doesn't require your hands. I've spent a lot of time practicing moves like this as I watch TV. Smile

Ron Jaxon
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After regaining my ability to hear after 20 years of deafness. I learned that there is magic all around you. The simplest sounds that amazed me you probably ignore. Look and listen around you right now. You'll find something you didn't notice before.
DomKabala
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If you learn better via visual media, the "Red Mirror" DVD by Helder Guimaraes gives some insightful tips on the Elmsley Count. His technique is flawless and I highly recommend this DVD...

Cardamagically,
Dom Smile Smile
We don't stop playing when we grow old...we grow old when we stop playing.

God is enough, let go, let God. Gal 2:20

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jason4vu
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Quote:
On 2011-01-18 13:50, DomKabala wrote:
If you learn better via visual media, the "Red Mirror" DVD by Helder Guimaraes gives some insightful tips on the Elmsley Count. His technique is flawless and I highly recommend this DVD...

Cardamagically,
Dom Smile Smile


Thanks! I just picked this up off eBay.
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