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balducci
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Woland, I hope you caught my reply to your nonsense remark that "Last winter was unusually cold". In fact, it was quite the opposite. Except, perhaps, in your small corner of the world.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-12-21 12:59, Woland wrote:
Magnus,

As far as I can tell from reports online and in the news, the severe and record-breaking cold that is complicating travel in Europe is not occurring in isolated pockets. People are dying of the cold, not of the heat, all across Europe. Including places such as Russia that you would expect to be able to cope with cold weather.

Austria recorded its coldest temperature ever this week. The Rhein-Main-Danube canal has been closed for the first time in 5 years. It is frozen over. In Dresden, zookeepers elected to move Humboldt penguins indoors because of the extreme cold. Snow fell on the Acropolis.

When an entire continent is affected, it is hardly "isolated bits of cold."

Personally, I wish the climate were getting warm. periods of warm climate are always better for the human race. But I think that the relative warmth of last quarter of the XXth century is behind us, and we face a colder future ahead.


In either case, destroying the industrial economies of the west and transferring the wealth that western workingmen have created to the favored third world tyrannies of our transnational elitists will not be of much use.

Peace Out.

Woland


At least your agenda is clear. You will oppose climate science regardless of its results because you believe it to be in opposition to your beliefs about economics. Why not save us all a lot of bother and just say it.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
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Dear balducci,

Not only in my little corner of the third rock from the sun.

This year, it is pretty freaking cold everywhere. I've already mentioned the record-breaking low temperatures across Europe.

According to the National Snow & Ice Data Center, southern hemisphere (Antarctic) sea ice is at a record high.

Snow fell in Victoria, Australia, on December 19 - southern hemisphere summer! Temperatures throughout Australia are from 4 to 12 degrees below normal.

As for last year, despite your claim that the winter was not unusually cold, the Wikipedia entry for the 2009-2010 winter season begins insouciantly thus:

Quote:
The winter of 2009–2010 in Europe was unusually cold. Globally there were atypical snowfalls in several parts of the Northern Hemisphere. In January 2010, the northern half of Europe experienced its coldest winters since 1981–1982. Starting on 16 December 2009 light snowfalls and weather warnings took place. A persistent weather pattern brought cold moist air from the north with systems undergoing cyclogenesis from North American storms moving across the Atlantic Ocean to the west, and saw many parts of Europe experiencing heavy snowfall and record low temperatures. This led to a number of deaths, widespread transport disruption, power failures and the postponement of a number of sporting events.


The British Department of Health estimated that there would be 40,000 excess deaths due to the cold.

And there were also very severe winter storms across Asia.

Quote:
Between January 1 and 2, 2010, 50- and 70-year record low temperatures and snowfall hit northern China and Korea starting 1 January. Beijing was hit by a blizzard starting the evening of the 2nd,[32] with 70-80% of flights cancelled out of Beijing Capital International Airport by January 4[12], and close to 20 cm of snow fell in the north of the city, and close to 25 cm in Seoul.[14][15] Schools across the area were closed, and Premier Wen asked local governments to ensure safe transportation, continued food supplies, and continued agricultural production.[12] Continued snowstorms were forecast for the city of Beijing and the province of Inner Mongolia. It was also predicted on January 7 for snow to reach the provinces of Jiangsu, Anhui, Henan and Hubei on January 9 according to China National Radio.[16] One person was killed in Xinjiang Autonomous Region as a result of the storm.[17] Emergency services handded out extra cattle fodder in Tibet.




Now, maybe last winter was warm "in your small corner of the world," or in but to use Magnus's phrase, "isolated bits" of warm do not make up the entirety of climate.

Peace Out.

Woland
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Magnus,

No, I do not oppose climate science because it is in opposition to my beliefs about economics. I oppose fraudulent climate fear-mongering because its purpose is not science, but socialism.

At the recent unseasonably cold Cancun global warming meeting, one of the leaders of the movement admitted that the purpose of advancing the agenda was income redistribution.

Ottmar Edenhofer, an IPCC official, expr......itung:

Quote:
Das Neue an Ihrem Vorschlag zu einem Global Deal ist die Betonung, wie wichtig Entwicklungspolitik für die Klimapolitik ist. Bis jetzt denken viele bei Entwicklungshilfe an Almosen.
Das wird sich sofort ändern, wenn global Emissionsrechte verteilt werden. Wenn das pro Kopf der Bevölkerung geschieht, dann ist Afrika der grosse Gewinner, und es fliesst viel Geld dorthin. Das hat für die Entwicklungspolitik enorme Konsequenzen. Und es wird sich auch die Frage stellen, wie diese Länder mit so viel Geld überhaupt sinnvoll umgehen können.
Das klingt alles nicht mehr nach der Klimapolitik, die wir kennen.
Grundsätzlich ist es ein grosser Fehler, Klimapolitik abgetrennt von den grossen Themen der Globalisierung zu diskutieren. Der Klimagipfel in Cancún Ende des Monats ist keine Klimakonferenz, sondern eine der grössten Wirtschaftskonferenzen seit dem Zweiten Weltkrieg. Warum? Weil wir noch 11 000 Gigatonnen Kohlenstoff in den Kohlereserven unter unseren Füssen haben – und wir dürfen nur noch 400 Gigatonnen in der Atmosphäre ablagern, wenn wir das 2-Grad-Ziel halten wollen. 11 000 zu 400 – da führt kein Weg daran vorbei, dass ein Grossteil der fossilen Reserven I'm Boden bleiben muss.
De facto ist das eine Enteignung der Länder mit den Bodenschätzen. Das führt zu einer ganz anderen Entwicklung als der, die bisher mit Entwicklungspolitik angestossen wurde.
Zunächst mal haben wir Industrieländer die Atmosphäre der Weltgemeinschaft quasi enteignet. Aber man muss klar sagen: Wir verteilen durch die Klimapolitik de facto das Weltvermögen um. Dass die Besitzer von Kohle und Öl davon nicht begeistert sind, liegt auf der Hand. Man muss sich von der Illusion freimachen, dass internationale Klimapolitik Umweltpolitik ist. Das hat mit Umweltpolitik, mit Problemen wie Waldsterben oder Ozonloch, fast nichts mehr zu tun.


In English:

Quote:
(NZZ AM SONNTAG): The new thing about your proposal for a Global Deal is the stress on the importance of development policy for climate policy. Until now, many think of aid when they hear development policies.

(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): That will change immediately if global emission rights are distributed. If this happens, on a per capita basis, then Africa will be the big winner, and huge amounts of money will flow there. This will have enormous implications for development policy. And it will raise the question if these countries can deal responsibly with so much money at all.

(NZZ): That does not sound anymore like the climate policy that we know.

(EDENHOFER): Basically it's a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War. Why? Because we have 11,000 gigatons of carbon in the coal reserves in the soil under our feet - and we must emit only 400 gigatons in the atmosphere if we want to keep the 2-degree target. 11 000 to 400 - there is no getting around the fact that most of the fossil reserves must remain in the soil.

(NZZ): De facto, this means an expropriation of the countries with natural resources. This leads to a very different development from that which has been triggered by development policy.

(EDENHOFER): First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.


The driving force behind the global warming movement is the drive towards socialism and state control of every aspect of life. That's the underlying agenda. That's the only reason it is being promoted at all.

Peace Out.

Woland
MagicSanta
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Woland, you have to calculate in the winter hot spots in order to up the Winter average to suit the warmers. Don't ya understand how it works yet?
Woland
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MagicSanta,

The way they do it is not to incorporate hot spots, but to eliminate cold spots. Comparing the weather stations that were in the dataset 20 years ago with the weather stations that are in it today is revealing. The more rural stations, which are less likely to be urban heat islands, have been disappearing from the models, as have the weather stations located closer to the poles. No wonder the world's average temperature appears to be rising!

But even if it were getting warmer, which I think is doubtful, and even it that warming were due to industrially produced carbon dioxide, which I think is balderdash, it would be a good thing. And taxing the United Kingdom to subsidize Robert Mugabe and Hugo Chavez isn't going to help!

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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Hey Woland! NASA, November 2010 was the coldest November on record, worldwide. Oh, and guess what! Yes indeed, the period from January-November 2010 was also the warmest in the 131 years of data available. How crazy is that?

Image


But I'm sure it wasn't like that where you live. And what else could count?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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Well its getting bad over here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVooUHN7j4
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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balducci
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Quote:
On 2010-12-21 16:06, Woland wrote:
Dear balducci,

Not only in my little corner of the third rock from the sun.

This year, it is pretty freaking cold everywhere. I've already mentioned the record-breaking low temperatures across Europe.

According to the National Snow & Ice Data Center, southern hemisphere (Antarctic) sea ice is at a record high.

Snow fell in Victoria, Australia, on December 19 - southern hemisphere summer! Temperatures throughout Australia are from 4 to 12 degrees below normal.

As for last year, despite your claim that the winter was not unusually cold, the Wikipedia entry for the 2009-2010 winter season begins insouciantly thus:

Quote:
The winter of 2009–2010 in Europe was unusually cold. Globally there were atypical snowfalls in several parts of the Northern Hemisphere. In January 2010, the northern half of Europe experienced its coldest winters since 1981–1982. Starting on 16 December 2009 light snowfalls and weather warnings took place. A persistent weather pattern brought cold moist air from the north with systems undergoing cyclogenesis from North American storms moving across the Atlantic Ocean to the west, and saw many parts of Europe experiencing heavy snowfall and record low temperatures. This led to a number of deaths, widespread transport disruption, power failures and the postponement of a number of sporting events.


Again, LAST winter was the fifth warmest on record, worldwide:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/03/2......84.shtml

"It will probably come as a surprise to most Americans, but the winter just finished was the fifth warmest on record, worldwide."

It is not MY claim. I was citing the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Whereas you are citing Wikipedia. And cherry picking local weather patterns, whereas I am talking about overall.

By the way, in case you missed it, Britain had all of 4 inches (!) of snow that brought the airports and rail to crisis mode. It was not the weather all by itself that caused the problems, it was really mostly due to the failed infrastructure (i.e., few working snow removal machines and operators available).
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
tommy
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The 2009/2010 Cold Season was marked by several significant winter storms across the United States. These storms brought snowfall to regions that do not often receive significant snow accumulations, including the Southern Plains and the Southeast. The Southwest and Northeast were also particularly hard hit, with numerous seasonal snowfall records being broken. The track of storms across the southern tier of the country and then up the Atlantic seaboard is typical of an El Niño. The snow cover extent for the contiguous U.S. during the 2009/2010 Cold Season was above average for the season as a whole, but there was significant variation from month to month. The snowy season got off to an early start with several storms impacting the U.S. during October. These storms helped produce the largest average snow extent during any October for the contiguous U.S. in the 42 year satellite record, according to Rutger's University Global Snow Lab. Conversely, November was very quiet with much below average snow cover. The following three months were cold and snowy with the extent being much above average for December (all time snowiest), January (6th snowiest), and February (3rd snowiest). During January, snow and freezing temperatures were reported as far south as central Florida. March brought temperatures which were much above normal for the northern tier of the country, and as a result there was a great deal of snowmelt. The snowmelt led to significant flooding in the Northern Plains and New England and much below average snow cover extent for the nation as a whole.

NOAA


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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Magnus Eisengrim
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It's getting pretty clear that Woland and Tommy are just playing dumb. Surely neither of them is fool enough to believe that finding a few cold spots now and then is sufficient evidence to claim anything about the average temperature of the earth.

Come on guys, spill the beans. You really don't believe a word you type do you?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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Yes I was kidding. Last winter was warner than ave especially November. Dec was bad but on ave you warmers won last winter. I wish you warmers the best of luck this winter cos we are freezing here. Smile
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MagicSanta
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WINTER SUCKS....
Woland
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Magnus,

Time will tell. The Antarctic sea ice is at all time record high levels. We'll see how much melts over the Southern Hemisphere's summer, and we'll see what this winter brings in the Arctic. People are dying of the cold all over northern Europe and it isn't even January yet. Time will tell.

By the way, the NASA maps you posted are from James Hansen's shop. They are based on surface recordings, i.e. the weather station records that are biased by the relative predominance of urban heat islands and the selective removal of rural and relatively more polar stations over the years. Hansen himself is an arch-priest of the gaian cult of global warming.

Peace Out.

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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We always freeze here in the winter. But the last few have been less freezing than usual.

OTOH we have a bit of extra snow this year, and I'm pretty happy about that.

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2010-12-21 07:57, Woland wrote:
Ed,

More moisture in the air means more precipitation - probably true.

But unless it is COLD you get rain, not snow.

******************


Point taken, but the temperatures haven't reached the point where winter temperatures are above freezing constantly. Therefore, slightly higher temperatures mean more moisture in the air, temperatures still averaging near freezing mean that extra precipitation will be snow.

Quote:
On 2010-12-21 10:24, Woland wrote:
Last winter was unusually cold. This winter appears to be the coldest on record. How many cold years will it take before the glowball warmenists abandon their belief?

They will never give it up actually. For the definitive account of what happens when a strongly held belief is falsified by experience, read "When Prophecy Fails" by Festinger, Riecken, and Schachter. I believe they coined the term "cognitive dissonance."

Woland


It's been extremely cold here too, mostly because the Jet Stream is bringing down Arctic cold air. Is the Jet Stream dipping over England as well? That wouldn't be "normal" temperatures in the area. (I'm not certain what the cause of the Jet Stream dipping so drastically is, or if there is a reason.)
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2010-12-21 22:41, Woland wrote:
Magnus,

Time will tell. The Antarctic sea ice is at all time record high levels. We'll see how much melts over the Southern Hemisphere's summer, and we'll see what this winter brings in the Arctic. People are dying of the cold all over northern Europe and it isn't even January yet. Time will tell.

By the way, the NASA maps you posted are from James Hansen's shop. They are based on surface recordings, i.e. the weather station records that are biased by the relative predominance of urban heat islands and the selective removal of rural and relatively more polar stations over the years. Hansen himself is an arch-priest of the gaian cult of global warming.

Peace Out.

Woland


Woland, have you read ONE of Hansen's publications? Can you explain to us how his 2001 analysis of "urban heat islands" has been adopted into the literature? Maybe you can explain how urban heat islands have an effect on his use of satellite data to measure ocean surface temperatures? Perhaps you have one SCRAP of evidence that he is "arch-priest of the gaian cult of global warming."

Of course, the graphs were not prepared by Hansen but by his colleague Makiko Satao. Care to attack his character without providing evidence, too?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Magnus,

I am sure you are well aware of the discrepancies between the satellite temperature measurements and the surface temperature measurements. The graphs you showed were based on surface temperature measurements.

The observation that Hansen is an arch-priest of the global warming cult is not something to be proven; it is a judgment based on reading his nearly insane ravings.

Woland
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Well, there is no snow in Malaysia either.
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MagicSanta
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You don't understand Woland! It isn't the weather and temps that indicate global warming! It is the existance of some manufacturing and too many dang cars in the US that is the indicator! We must be stopped before the world is........destroyed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcLazPauA1c
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