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djurmann Inner circle thinks time to practice and stop writing 1481 Posts |
If you want to learn magic rather than sleights, I believe it is better to learn tricks (which may require you to learn sleights) and then perform the tricks.
This means that the positive feedback from performing tricks will propel your enjoyment in magic and to learn more. Conversely learning sleights for sleights sake is perhaps less rewarding. Just my two pennyworth. |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
I agree but sometimes a sleight used in a trick isn't to your liking for some reason.
Then, IMO, it's time to explore alternatives. |
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Bob Sanders Grammar Supervisor Magic Valley Ranch, Clanton, Alabama 20504 Posts |
I also certainly agree. Music teachers have a problem with me on this line of thought too. Learning pieces beats learning chords any day. Until you can do a trick or play a song, you are not in the business. Your style will develop later. First you have to have a way to entertain!
Bob Sanders Magic By Sander |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Well, yes but....
You cannot learn a piece of music without first learning what a note is. I believe learning an illusion is great motivation to learn the sleight, but you DO have to learn the sleight before you can perform the illusion. And to stretch the music analogy further, once you learn to read a note, you can play a piece someone else wrote. Once you understand chord progressions however, you can play jazz
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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DWRackley Inner circle Chattanooga, TN 1909 Posts |
I think it takes both (obviously)!
And it works best if done at the same time. When I was first starting piano lessons, the book taught what the treble clef was, then had a simple song that used just those notes. Next was the bass clef, then a song (minor) that used only those notes. A brief review, then a song that used both staffs. All the while it was recommending finger positions for simplest access. Magic should be approached the same way. I learned the French Drop with my Vanishing Key. Svengali showed me how a DL should work on a regular deck. Cups and Balls taught timing and fluidity of motion. You have to have the sleight, but there should be an immediate payoff (at least in the beginning). It's how we train our pets...
...what if I could read your mind?
Chattanooga's Premier Mentalist Donatelli and Company at ChattanoogaPerformers.com also on FaceBook |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Absolutely agree
And, as I think the original poster intended, you cannot really call yourself a magician if all you ever do is sit by yourself and practice your sleights. Magic is more then half about presentation, and you only really learn about that by doing it.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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scottds80 Special user Victoria, Australia 730 Posts |
Self working tricks are a great way for a beginner to explore magic. Then sleights should happen later, once he learns how to manage his performing style. I remember when I was new to magic, I tried sleights straight up and hopelessly failed because I had hardly any performing experience.
The first trick I ever got down pat was knowing the "key card" to locate a spectators chosen card. I floored many people with this simple trick. Anyone new to magic, PM me and I'll guide you through this very basic trick. That will get you started. Or buy Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic.
"Great Scott the Magician", Gippsland
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
I thin kit depends on the person Scott. One of the first tricks I ever learned was the French Drop.
But I agree that self workers are a good way to hone your performance skills.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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sushimonster New user 79 Posts |
French Drop is more a sleight than a trick, no?
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
True, I should probably say that the first trick I learned as to make a quarter disappear via the French drop, and a few different reveals.
(Out the elbow. Out the nose. Slap through table)
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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RobertlewisIR Veteran user Colorado 367 Posts |
I agree. Sleights are necessary and worth learning for their own sake. But to the beginner, that can be boring and tedious. We want to get out there and by gods DO something. So I figure it should go something like this.
1) One self-working trick, just to get the feel of performing. 2) Choose a trick that requires sleights, and learn those sleights in the context of that trick. 3) Repeat. 4) Eventually apply all the sleights you've learned to other applications.
~Bob
---------- Last night, I dreamed I ate the world's largest marshmallow. When I woke up, the pillow was gone. |
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Denis Bastible Loyal user Buffalo, New York 293 Posts |
A basic knowledge of important sleights makes a person a magician who can perform impromptu magic with coins, cards, balls, napkins etc. The Mark Wilson Course in Magic, which can be purchased used on the web for very little, contains wealth of information on sleight of hand that is neither too difficult or boring if one really wants to "be" a magician.
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samuwel New user 60 Posts |
Continuing the analogy with music...
If you want to entertain, then playing another persons songs (or doing someone elses tricks) is a good way to get started, but if you want to begin to compose your own pieces (create your own effects), or tailor another's music to your own style of performing, then it is necessary to know the underlying theory behind the music (i.e. you need to have the sleights within your arsenal to achieve what you want to do) I agree that learning sleights in the context of a trick is the best way to go about it as it often provides a nice example of how to use misdirection to cover the sleight (an invaluable thing to a beginner as it is often one of the hardest things to grasp when starting out). |
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shamsiel Regular user 120 Posts |
I am new at this art. I read Hay cover to cover without practicing (just to understand what I was getting myself into and to absorb his insights about this performance art). Did the same with Corinda.
I was going to practice Hay -chapter by chapter- until I realized that it was going to take me two lifetimes to perfect all branches of the Art. I sat down alone and stared at HAY and Corinda and had to make a choice there and then -Mentalism or Coins?-. Decided to do coins first. I guess its going to be a long time before I give mentalism my FULL attention. With coins I am trying a similar approach to the one that began this thread. I bought my third book -Bobos-. Began the journey from chapter one. And at the same time have been researching tricks that involve the first sleight. I think this is what will work for me. If you have to learn a sleight, you might as well put it into practice right away. My CP doesn't look very good, and I have a hard time making my hands look natural so I practice. And the best way to practice -for me- is by performing for my imaginary audience in front of the mirror. Ive even made up a few stories and tricks along the way. I agree that learning sleights for sleights sake sucks. I know that there are some great self-workers out there. I find no enjoyment at this moment from self-working tricks because, after all, I'm learning tricks in order to practice my sleights, so that my presentations have magical UMPH! Respects, Shamsiel |
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crochow Regular user Youngstown, Ohio 129 Posts |
Sleights, are to be "invisible". NO one should be aware that a sleight was done. I chuckle when someone was may comment ..."that was a nice slieght".... if it was a nice sleight, then no one would know. Get it?
Magically,
Chris Rochow |
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scottds80 Special user Victoria, Australia 730 Posts |
A magician could say "that was a nice sleight" because he already knows the secret.
"Great Scott the Magician", Gippsland
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
And I sometimes ask a fellow magician to "show me their favorite sleight" by which I really mean favorite illusion USING a sleight.
Sham-- I've found two good practice techniques for getting "natural." The first is practicing in front of a mirror. I don't just practice the sleight, however, I also do it WITHOUT the sleight to see what it "should" look like and then try to copy that. For instance, in practicing the french drop I would actually take the coin and away it away and observe what my hands look like when I do that, then mimic it with the drop. (This is adapted for a technique animators use where they well actually physically act a part in order to understand what they have to draw.) The second is particularly useful for palms and such, which is that I carry my coins with me and go about my daily routine while holding a coin in a palm position, moving it between positions, etc. The goal is to do everything I normally do in a day without exposing or dropping the coin.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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shamsiel Regular user 120 Posts |
Great tips Cyberqat. I do the same thing in the mirror. After I drop my coin for the 15th time, and feel like screaming, I just do the presentation a few times without the coin. It gives me a moment to pause, relax, and imagine what it would look like if I didn't suck. Then I might practice the sleight and back to the presentation. I will begin paying more attention to the times I practice without the coin.
Your second tip has been mentioned by a few members before and it seems like its the thing that most magicians do. I cant argue with a technique that has been used successfully by those above me in the Art. I will carry my half dollar with me from now on(Im just a little afraid to loose them). Respects, Shamsiel |
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Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
Heh. if you lose a half dollar, your out 50 cents. In trick terms that not bad Besides, trust me, you may lose oen or two sometime dropping it someplace you cant retrieve it, but for the most part you'll stop dropping them very quickly.
Btw, you used to be able to get rolls of halves at your local bank but with everything going electronic that's harder. If you gets tuck, you can order them on line straight from the US mint (thats what I did for my last 2 rolls.) You'll pay a bit for postage but nothing too awful.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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shamsiel Regular user 120 Posts |
But arent the silver ones worth a little more?
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