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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » When does marketing become exposure? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mindpunisher
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There seem to be so much marketing of mentalism and hypnosis these days for peanuts. Often its pretty cheap and nasty desparate atempts to claw money in.

When does it become blatant exposure for a few quid? I mean it can't be good for the "art"?
jdmagic357
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On 2010-12-30 12:25, mindpunisher wrote:
There seem to be so much marketing of mentalism and hypnosis these days for peanuts. Often its pretty cheap and nasty desparate atempts to claw money in.

When does it become blatant exposure for a few quid? I mean it can't be good for the "art"?


It does seem to be a contradiction doesn't it? I mean first were told that exposure is wrong, then we say it's ok for fee? The only difference seems to be the capitalism and the justification through said capitalism. Not that there's anything wrong with making a buck, but lets not delude ourselves into believing that somehow we are defenders of the art, through non exposure. We are capitalists, looking to make money. That's the truth of it, and hay it's ok.

Cheers.
Just cause they say it, doesn't make it true.
mindpunisher
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Some are nothing more than cheap prostitutes...and create a stench in the "community" if there is such a thing.
jdmagic357
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On 2010-12-30 13:17, mindpunisher wrote:
Some are nothing more than cheap prostitutes...and create a stench in the "community" if there is such a thing.


Wow! Pretty strong sentiments behind that post. I hear you brother and feel you pain. Here is another thread where this has been discussed a bit. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=196&7

Cheers.
Just cause they say it, doesn't make it true.
blackESP
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When I first got into this four or five years ago, I was shocked to find you could learn by buying books and DVDs, no questions asked. I'd always assumed that the secrets were passed down from master to apprentice, or you had to be a member of the magic circle, but no, for the right price, you can learn VERY powerful stuff.

I can't complain too much because it's allowed me to learn (and I'm still learning) an art which I've come to love. But I can also understand the upset it causes people, especially pros who make their living performing.

Having said that, a lot of the material out there is from the top names in the business. I'd imagine that the big names are very well paid for their performances and earn a decent living, so do they REALLY need the money that a DVD set will bring in? Is it more important than the secrecy of the art?

Should these big names not be setting an example? If little Jimmy e-book sees the big guys releasing secrets willy-nilly, is it really a surprise he thinks it's OK to do it himself?
dmkraig
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This argument has been going on at least since The Discoverie of Witchcraft was first published in London, in 1584.

It's not the effect, it's the performer. People were bending things long before Uri. People have pretended to use hypnosis long before Derren. Some of the greatest effects ever can be found in any school or public library.
Jim-Callahan
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On 2010-12-30 18:00, dmkraig wrote:
This argument has been going on at least since The Discoverie of Witchcraft was first published in London, in 1584.

It's not the effect, it's the performer. People were bending things long before Uri. People have pretended to use hypnosis long before Derren. Some of the greatest effects ever can be found in any school or public library.


Gotta call BS. on this man.

Who was bending things long before Uri?

Know very little of Derren, being from the US.
But I do use hypnosis but do the real deal.
Have since I was around 17.
Thirty years for those keeping track.
(That does make me feel old).

Do agree with you about the Library.

Jim
“I can make Satan’s devils dance like fine gentlemen across the stage of reality”.
Benji Bruce
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Mindpunisher I'm not sure if I understand where you're coming from. Are you saying that it is wrong to market yourself as a mentalist/hypnotist and get paid for it because the marketing takes away from the art? Or are you saying that mentalists/hypnotists who put out products are causing too much exposure?
mindpunisher
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Benji no nothing to do with marketing a performance more to do with marketing secrets cheap and from people with incomplete knowledge.

And Craig/DM the discovery of the internet and PAYPAL and easy to create digital products has meant that it has become easy for the biggest hacks to push products/secrets to more people than ever before in any time of our history. In the past these most of those hacks wouldn't have existed. Times are different now. There is very little love or respect left for the art in many cases.

There is a difference with a few library books lying around than the internet. Having said that perhaps its a cultural thing but I don't ever recall any such books in my school college or university libraries. And ones in the shops are your ordinary basic magic books.

Times have changed and more noticably over the last three or four years. Brown makes mentalism popular then the hacks appear to make money.
mastermindreader
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The way I understood it, Mindpunisher was, quite rightly, referring to things marketed cheaply to the public and the ellusionist kiddie types.
The "Revelation technique" that was a topic of another thread, would be a good example.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Benji Bruce
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Ok that makes sense. I don't think it cheapens the art at all. Although it has become easier to find secrets, the art comes in the performance of an effect and not the explanation of it.
Dr. Van Van Mojo
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I've always found it odd when those that perform for the public have links to their store or sell their books and effects on the same website they use to market themselves as performers. I feel these should be kept separate. Maybe someone has thoughts on this that would make me see it differently.
mindpunisher
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On 2010-12-30 22:03, Benji Bruce wrote:
Ok that makes sense. I don't think it cheapens the art at all. Although it has become easier to find secrets, the art comes in the performance of an effect and not the explanation of it.


I just don't buy that. The more hacks selling and the more hacks performing DO cheapen the art.

Show a room of 100 people how to do basic effects. Then go and perform for them a week after then come back and tell its all in the performance. Its not. A BIG part of mentalism is the mystery and wonder if it might be real.

I also agree with the poster above...I just don't understand the mentality or desparation perhaps of those performers that sell effects to members of their audience. I have even seen performers on face book market their new shiney dvds to those that have been to see them...

And they can't see that even without buying the DVDs it cheapens them and takes away the mystery. And of course those laymen that do buy them often tell others how it was done.

Greed or stupidity I'm not sure which?
Waterloophai
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On 2010-12-31 05:13, mindpunisher wrote:
Greed or stupidity I'm not sure which?


Both.
robwar0100
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With the economy what it has been the past few years, I cannot fault performers who are looking for additional streams of revenue, whether it be through new products, DVDs, books, ebooks, lectures or consultations.

I am going to digress just a little, if you don't mind. I always get a chuckle out of the response, "I am pricing this high to keep it out of the hands of the curious."

I understand the sentiment, however, what the statement tells me is that it is not really worth the higher figure, but it is being sold at that price point for other reasons. In my mind, it is better to say it is priced this way because it is a professional routine.

By comparison: Richard Osterlind sells his Radar Deck for $20. It astonishes people. Bob Cassidy sells his ebook on The Journey Through the Fourth Dimension for $35. This floors people. Rick Maue's The Road ebook is $22. For $77, you are well on your way to building a rather nice show until you reach the point where you create your own effects or make others' effects your own. To me, this is peanuts and a fraction of what I make for a show, but I am indeed grateful.

There are those items pushed onto the market before they are ready. Sometimes there are nuggets of gold, just be careful and buy from those in whom you trust.

Bobby
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Benji Bruce
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Mindpunisher your example is not reasonable. Nobody would show 100 people how to do an effect and then perform for them a week later. What I'm saying is that:
1)Most of the average public doesn't know anything about magic, mentalism, or hypnotism. They even forget the effects that have been revealed by the Masked Magician. I was told that the show The Mentalist revealed the nail writer and I'm still using it every performance.

2)The information on how to learn magic, mentalism, hypnotism STILL has to be searched for. The internet has made it easier to find secrets but above all, people still have to seek out the information. And although we like to think that every laymen is searching for the coin trick on their Iphone, I can promise you they're not; people have other things to do. So the next time someone talks about how they found out your card trick on youtube, just remember all the people who didn't bother searching (you can't please everybody).

Above all, most people are laymen and have not seen another entertainer. Nor have they seen all the information you can purchase (which is why so many people ask you, "where do you learn all this stuff")
Mike Ince
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Selling "anything to anyone at the right price" has become far more important than preserving the integrity of magic.

Entity has a passionate and persuasive essay on exposure posted at his website. I encourage you to read the essay here: http://www.thoughtcontrol.ca/site/content2.php It's under the "T. Baxter Library" heading and is called, "The Evolution of Exposures in Magic".

Tom is another lifetime professional who respects the memory of the greats who have preceded us, those who gave us their secrets to better our own performances.

Long live Amazement and Mystery.
The secret of deception is in making the truth seem ridiculous.
jdmagic357
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On 2010-12-31 12:22, Mike Ince wrote:
Selling "anything to anyone at the right price" has become far more important than preserving the integrity of magic.

Entity has a passionate and persuasive essay on exposure posted at his website. I encourage you to read the essay here: http://www.thoughtcontrol.ca/site/content2.php It's under the "T. Baxter Library" heading and is called, "The Evolution of Exposures in Magic".

Tom is another lifetime professional who respects the memory of the greats who have preceded us, those who gave us their secrets to better our own performances.

Long live Amazement and Mystery.


I agree with his (T. Baxter's) assessment of the situation but the problem goes deeper, and would take a psychic change of not only people in our industry, but people in business altogether. So long as the almighty buck is involved, there will always be justifications on how to get them. The love of money is the root ot all evil and to many people love money but won't admit it. Don't get me wrong, I like nice things to for me and my family, but there is a point of excess I won't go beyond. It's also true that to be able to live with myself, giving to others anonymously, is a regular therapy. Especially when I'm privileged enough to do what I love, so that work seems like play today, it's only RIGHT, for ME to give back. I suppose I could write books and produce DVD's, but the one on one approach to ME is best. I would be to tempted anyway to sell me stuff and doesn't that really divert from giving?

Yeah I know myself very well and giving of the heart comes without a price tag. Best that I leave this kind of capitalism alone or be seduced by it. Maybe close to the end I'll feel differently, but at 49 with one more year before I retire, I think it might be a long time till I profit from my experience. Most of what I just wrote was for me so I can come back and read it when I feel somehow that I need to take for myself instead of giving back. Which in reality is for me.

Thanks for letting me rant.

Cheers.
Just cause they say it, doesn't make it true.
mindpunisher
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On 2010-12-31 11:54, Benji Bruce wrote:
Mindpunisher your example is not reasonable. Nobody would show 100 people how to do an effect and then perform for them a week later. What I'm saying is that:
1)Most of the average public doesn't know anything about magic, mentalism, or hypnotism. They even forget the effects that have been revealed by the Masked Magician. I was told that the show The Mentalist revealed the nail writer and I'm still using it every performance.

2)The information on how to learn magic, mentalism, hypnotism STILL has to be searched for. The internet has made it easier to find secrets but above all, people still have to seek out the information. And although we like to think that every laymen is searching for the coin trick on their Iphone, I can promise you they're not; people have other things to do. So the next time someone talks about how they found out your card trick on youtube, just remember all the people who didn't bother searching (you can't please everybody).

Above all, most people are laymen and have not seen another entertainer. Nor have they seen all the information you can purchase (which is why so many people ask you, "where do you learn all this stuff")


With the greatest of respect Ive heard this argument before and I think those that buy into it are either dreaming or are in denial or are selling products. I've seen it totally destroy the hypnosis market in this country which was much bigger than mentalism ever will be. Remember most only means more than half. And also too many mentalists performing because of being able to find stuff much easier will tend to devalue the so called art. But we all have our own take on it.
Benji Bruce
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The day people start telling me how I do certain effects is the day I will get worried. But right now, people have no clue about the methods. And I highly doubt laymen would every buy Richard Osterlind's dvd just to figure out how I read their minds with a deck of cards.

But if people like Osterlind can produce products and still get plenty of gigs then it doesn't worry me at all.

And I'm curious...how did it destroy the hypnosis market?
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