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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
This is probably not a new idea and I know I am very new to this group but after only brief exposure to the discussions I am wondering if any or all of you have considered attempting to work collaboratively to compile as much of the existing knowledge on the subject into a single volume?
To be sure the masters of the practice should be in charge but it seems to me that everyone may have something to contribute; large and small. Subjects such as cup construction, ball construction, bibliography writings, photos, slights, who is who (living and dead), wands, patter, and on and on. Perhaps a labor of love on everyones part that could well span years of research and writing; but, in my humble opinion well worth the effort. To my limited knowledge nothing like this on the subject has ever been completed and published; perhaps for good reason that I am not aware of. I for one would be truly honored to work on such a project. Okay, go ahead and let me "have it"; after all, I am far less knowledgeable and experienced than most of the members of this forum. Happy New Year to all!
Always leave yourself an out.
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Sir Richard Special user 650 Posts |
Check out the Cups & Balls Museum via Bill Palmer. You'll get a password to enter.
Sir Richard.
"In the land of Murphy there is but ONE law!"
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
The knowledge is out there but not all in one encyclopedic volume.
I have thought about this but the project would be massive and just outlining it all is a daunting task. The Cups and balls Museum is a great resource to check out if you have not done so yet. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
And aside from getting to tag the first posting of this volume on a p2p site, what would be gained by having such a volume in hand?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
As one who is involved in the publishing business, I can tell you that it's not a simple task. There is, for one thing, a question of copyrights. The Ammar book is copyrighted. So is the Dai Vernon routine, although that could probably be gotten fairly easily. There is all of the Eddie Joseph material, probably still under copyright, although arrangements have been made elsewhere to publish his material.
There are two extremely important manuscripts available as free downloads at the cups and balls museum.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
It would indeed be a challenging task. But I think it could be accomplished.
Another item I do not yet know about is: does this group/forum ever get together for a C&B Summit or something similar? It might be nice to gather together for a session periodically; yearly, every other year, or every three years or so. Aside from simply socializing and confering with each other, one subject could be this type of project. I am sure it sounds idealistic but my purpose would be for us to compile a compeduim of knowledge for us and future generations. Additionally, it would not necessarily have to be "the final word" so to speak. It could be more of a living document concept with updates and revisons available as they are developed. As I understand it, C&B is one of the "root" concepts of magic and, at least to me, deserves this type of special focused attention. There are many brilliant minds on the subject in this forum and these folks likely know others. It is my position that this type of project would benfit the C&B community and, more importantly the community of magic as a whole. I look forward to healthy skepticism and constructive criticism from everyone and hope that the concensus is to give it a try despite the many looming challenges such as copyright. (I am sure there are many other challenges not yet mentioned or realized.)
Always leave yourself an out.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
There was a cups convention planned a while back, but various problems, such as jobs, intervened. http://www.cupscon.com
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
So what is to say we should not try again?
The minimum attendance might be two. The minimum venue might be one persons house. No need to start out on any sort of grand scale is there? Let's try it and see how it goes. I am willing. Anyone else?
Always leave yourself an out.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Talk to Sean Dale. He is the man behind the plan.
There is a Crown Plaza hotel about 2 miles down the freeway from my house. They have some meeting rooms, and a very nice atmosphere.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
Donnie and I used to get together on Thursdays to discuss magic in general but it usually got around to cups and balls each week.
If your ever in town let Donnie or I know and we will be more than happy to meet over dinner. If I am ever in Houston I will have to shoot you a message Bill. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Back to the book. The big fly in the ointment is L&L Publishing Co. When they published the Ammar book in 1998, although there was a fairly strong interest in the cups and balls at the time, it was NOTHING like there is now. I don't have the print figures for the book, but the copyright is jointly held between Michael Ammar and L&L Publishing. It took L&L 10 years to completely sell out of the book.
They have had a number of requests for the book to be reprinted, but they need to know that there is a ready market for about 1000 to 5000 copies before it is even worth their while to reprint it. To get permission to reprint the book within another book, the prospective publisher would have to pay for the rights to the book or guarantee a royalty. The same is true for the Dai Vernon material and the Eddie Joseph material. Depending on how much the various estates, publishers, owners, etc. want for their material, I estimate that the initial outlay before one single book comes off the presses would be about $15,000. The people who print books, such as Sheridan (the people who printed a number of books for L&L and Steven Minch) want their money up front. So figure you would really need about twice that to get the first run of, let's say, 3000 books. So now you have 3000 books. Where are you going to store them? Are you going to sell them to Murphy's first, or are you going to be the sole outlet for the first six months? Do you have any idea how much ROOM 3000 books takes up? If the timing isn't right, you get taxed on them twice or even three times. And before you even think it, publishing on demand really isn't an option. That runs the price of the individual copies of the book through the roof.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
So, Bill, are you saying there is no possible way? It could not be done even if we wanted to?
Are ther any more creative (and legal) approaches that might be pursued? Along the lines of getting together, I vote for Bill's vicinity and the hotel down the street sounds just fine to me; and I will take time off from my job to make it. We need a "round robin" canvas for some date proposals. Let's "get it going." Posted: Dec 31, 2010 11:11pm I am more about how we can accomplish something; identify the obstacles AND the means to overcome them.
Always leave yourself an out.
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kentfgunn Inner circle Merritt Island FL 1639 Posts |
Deceptor,
Running a convention of any size is a huge task. You can round robin all you want. It takes one or two guys with determination and organizational skills to pull one of these things off. By concentrating on a single effect you narrow your pool of available attendees. One year the World Magic Seminar had a cups and balls concentration as part of the convention. This was effective. A couple people in this very thread were in attendance. Perhaps you could contact the conventions in your area and see if you could help by getting some cups and ballers to add to their pool of prospective attendees. I know Sean Dale put a lot of time and effort into his website http://www.cupscon.com I'd take the advice of Mr. Palmer and contact him, via that website. Think of expanding the event to include discussions/lectures on allied items like the Chop Cup, Bowl Routines in their various incarnations. Good luck. As someone who does run an annual convention where the cups and balls is always performed at least once, I'll warn you right now, it is a huge task. http://www.bamagic.com is the site for the convention I run with a handful of other magicians. Get a good team together and plan ahead, plan way ahead. KG Posted: Dec 31, 2010 11:45pm Put that in the wrong thread, sorry. I blame the New Year's Cheer. |
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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
I do not think we need to start out on quite so grandiose a scale. A small gathering with shared interest would be a nice start and could build on a yearly (or some periodic) basis from there.
Always leave yourself an out.
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
I see you've joined CupsCon. Sean still has plans, although they've stalled a bit. Bring it up there and see if you can get some interest up again.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Two things about planning a convention.
1) Don't plan to show a profit, at least for the first few years. 2) See how many people you can get to do the presentations/performances gratis. 3) Target your advertising. 4) Except for the "major" conventions, don't worry about what else is going on at the same time. 5) If you can swing it, though, one way to work it would be to piggy back it onto another convention. For example, you could work it out to be a one day convention either before or after the IBM or the SAM convention. 6) Start small. Quote:
On 2010-12-31 23:00, Deceptor wrote: There is another approach that is quasi-legal, but it would probably not be well-accepted. This would be to write a paraphrase of the Ammar book or to get Ammar to write a chapter in the book that has the important information. I have a "back burner" project that I have been stalling on because of some odd problems. There is a small book called Kleines Becherspiel Kompendium by Joro, that the publisher has asked me to translate. However, the more I look at it, the more I realize that much of the information in it is incorrect. There is a larger, more complete bibliography available than the one in the book. There are some cups featured in the book that supposedly belonged to Hofzinser. They didn't. I can prove it, but not without Magic Christian's extensive notes on the Hofzinser routine. All I can say about it is that Hofzinser never actually had the cups he wanted to use for the routine made up. There is also the question of the Frank Garcia material. It's good stuff, but the estate won't release it for reprint. This is basically the same thing that happened with Greater Magic that caused the publication of the reprint to be delayed for so long. The best suggestion I can make is to check eBay frequently and get copies of the books you really want.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
Bill:
I have a modest collection of C&B references that I have accumulated over the years; listed below, and continue to seek more. (Any guidance, direction, and/or recommendations you provide by way of locating additional references that I do not already have would be very appreciated.) My prize possesion is a set of Charlie Miller Cups that I purchased from Jay Marshall at Magic, Inc. in Chicago three or four decades ago. Ammar, Michael The Complete Cups And Balls 1998 Bauer, Ron Ron Bauer's Basic Cups And Balls Technique 2004 Behnke, Leo Cups And Balls 1990 Benatar, Rafael Transit Cups And Balls 1989 Brooke, Ken The Chop Cup Book Buffum, Richard The Cones And Balls 1961 Campbell, Jeffrey Jeffrey L. Campbell's Crystal Cups 1983 De Courcy, Ken Leo Leslie's Triple Colour Cups And Balls Ellis, Tim Runaround Sue 2001 Fabian Burtini's Cups And Balls Routine Fajuri, Gabe The Cups And Balls A Treatise On The World's Oldest Deception 2003 Farelli, Victor John Ramsay's Routine With Cups And Balls 1948 Fromer, Roy The Cups A Manual Of Cups And Balls Magic 1972 Ganson, Lewis The Dai Vernon Cups And Balls 1978 Ganson, Lewis Columbini's Cups And Balls Routine 1977 Garcia, Frank The Very Best Of Cups And Balls 1979 Garcia, Frank Don't Bet On It The Real Secrets Of Three Card Monte 1978 Garcia, Frank Frank Garcia Tells It All In A Nutshell 1974 Gunn, Kent The Fuun Shop Cups And Balls 2008 Ilango, P. K. Indian Cups And Balls 1983 Ireland, Laurie Ireland's Original Cup And Ball Routines 1980 Jones, Lloyd The Cups And Balls by Senor Mardo 1983 Joseph, Eddie The Last Word On Cups And Balls 1942 Joseph, Eddie A Practical Lesson On Cups And Balls Joseph, Eddie Advancned Lessons In Cups And Balls Joseph, Eddie Eddie Joseph On Cups And Balls Loomis, Dennis The Dennis Loomis Cups And Balls Routine 1985 Magic Incorporated Beer Can Magic Magicana Larry Jennings' Famous Chop Cup Routine 1965 Maxwell, Mike Michael Skinner's Ultimate 3 Card Monte 1990 McClintock, Reed Defiance II The Cups And Balls 2003 McWeeney, Sean Cups And Balls In 18th Century France 2007 Mendoza, John The Mendoza Cups and Balls Routine 1971 Mentzer, Jerry Effective Cups And Balls 1984 Morrissey Magic Incorporated The Indian Cups And Balls Charlie Miller Version Munari, Geno Cups And Balls Tricks, Tips, Routines, Jokes, And Gags 1996 Osborne, Tom Cups And Balls Magic 1973 Ouellet, Gary The Two Goblets 1980 Platt, John John Platt Internationally Famous Cups And Balls Read, Bob The Penultimate Cups And Balls 1974 Shute, Merlyn Cups Cups Cups 1980 Shute, Merlyn The "How To" Book Of The Chop Cup 1981 Trost, Nick Nick's Routine With The Cups And Balls 1971 Turcote, Dan The "In Your Hands" Cups And Balls Monty Routine 2004 Volkman, Kurt The Oldest Deception 1956 Walsh, Audley A Treatise On The Sucker Effects Of Three Card Monte (John Scarne) 1972 Wiliamson, David David Wiliamson's Das Goldene Becherspiel 1988 Williams, Dick Dick Williams' Cups And Balls For The New Millenium 1999 Willmarth, Philip Jim Ryan Close-Up The Famous Cups And Balls Routine 1980 Wilson, Mark The Chop Cup Book 1979 Wolfsberger, Gary Wolfsberger's Chop Cup And Ball Routine 1976 Wolfsberger, Gary Manipulation With The Cone And Ball 1976 York, Scott The Original X-Rated Cups and Balls 1975 Zavis, William Divers Deceits 1973 The Vernon-Mendoza Routine Cyclops Bob Farmer's One-Ball Cups And Balls Routine
Always leave yourself an out.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I think the date on the Wolfsberger Cone and Ball routine is actually 1975. I saw him performing and selling that in Little Rock Arkansas in 1975. The David Williamson routine is available in English. I'm not sure about the Ken Brooke chop cup book. It may have been published over there by Ken, but I think the author is actually Earl Nelson working for Mark Wilson.
The actual copyright date on the Ganson/Vernon routine would be 1952. It was originally published by Harry Stanley as part of the Dai Vernon Book of Magic. This said, it's a good basic collection of cups and balls material. Edit: That is the correct copyright date on those Cone instructions. He must have decided after the fact to copyright them. I should add that the Jennings routine, also called the Jennings/Wilson routine was actually by Bob Stencil, and would need some really heavy footnoting. This is where we start getting into the intricacies of publishing a compilation.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Deceptor New user Omaha 46 Posts |
Bill:
I am absolutely fascinated with the propsect. Any need to consult with a copyright attorney? My son-in-law is a patent attorney with good relationships in the copyright community. Maybe I should seek some pro bono advice? It seems that in many instances it might be all about the money. Like I said before I am somewhat idealistic and not all that interested in the propsect of making money. I think a contribution to the community and posterity would be far more valuable; pricless so to speak and a labor of love. I am also intrigued by the prospect of at least a small one day C&B "session" for anyone interested. Out here in Omaha, Nebraska I can get a room rent free at the Omaha Press Club. I do not know if I can get special rates at the nearby hotels but I am optimistic. I understand that even for a small session (vice a full blown "convention") there would be quite a bit of logistics to work out but well worth it if enough folks were interested.
Always leave yourself an out.
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I'll throw my name into the hat for anything like this that needs an extra set of hands. I live in the UK but call the US home and I'm always working on projects from a distance...sounds like a fun one!
If ever there was interest at doing one in Seattle, my brother owns a chain of very nice hotels here and therefore can work wonders with that sort of thing. Oh, and my parent's basement sleeps 12 comfortably. The uncomfortable part would be explaining why there are a bunch of weirdos in hats and capes lined up to use the guest bathroom.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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