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cairo Elite user 406 Posts |
Andrew, "Penn & Teller Fool Us" aired in the UK Jan 7 / 9pm on ITV.
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I should point out that I have no television. I'm only here for a year and my computer provides me with more than enough distraction.
I do, however, know folks at ITV. Maybe I'll see if I can squeeze a favor or two out of them.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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cairo Elite user 406 Posts |
Do it. Despite what the poster of this thread thinks... My bet is you will enjoy the program.
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Jack Baines New user 33 Posts |
Andrew, since you're in the UK you can still catch it on ITV player for the next 7 days.
http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=203348 |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Thank you for the link!
Posted: Jan 30, 2011 4:05pm I did indeed find the show interesting. Seeing Michael Vincent was a nice surprise as we've been exchanging emails and phone calls for awhile, and he's a real pleasure to see perform. I loved the last performer doing the Ace productions...the bit with the photograph at the end was truly beautiful. I also found Penn and Teller's illusion at the end to be quite a good routine. Funny stuff!
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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markmiller Special user 731 Posts |
Another voice of reason in a thread of insanity.
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-30 20:49, markmiller wrote: I should put that on my business card.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-01-30 20:49, markmiller wrote: Sorry, but calling this a thread of insanity when it asks a valid question only highlights a complete ignorance of the issue, which has nothing at all to do with how popular, fun or "liked" the show may be...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I do agree with Jim. I absolutely see Pakar's point and can understand why he posted.
I think I enjoyed the show because it is SO rare to see guys like Michael Vincent doing card tricks on national television. It always has to be about massive stage illusions or, at most, very quick routines. Being able to see a performance longer than 30 seconds with Letterman interjecting ridiculous commentary throughout is a real treat. I can also appreciate that Penn and Teller seemed to genuinely appreciate each performer, and they praised everyone that was on the show. This wasn't Britain's Got Talent, which was one of its best qualities. The guys didn't tell the performers that their act was bad, and they seemed to genuinely enjoy the performances, even if they knew how they were done. This wasn't a goal to humiliate the magicians (at least it didn't play that way when I watched it.) That said, while I enjoyed the show for the most part, I certainly wouldn't call someone insane if they didn't like it. Fans of Britain's Got Talent - now THOSE people are wackos.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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markmiller Special user 731 Posts |
I agree "insanity" may be too strong a word, perhaps that was used a bit for comedic effect? But I think most would agree there is most certainly more RIGHT and GOOD with "Fool Us" than wrong and if more "Fool Us" programs are made it would be a big asset to our world even if you don't happen to be a Penn&Teller fan.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Good on ya' mark, and thanks!
So, let us try to find some level ground. First, I will concede the program is a crowd-pleaser, highly entertaining to lots of folks and likely to be popular and successful as entertainment. But then, once upon a time, so was hanging. My concern is that, unlike hanging, it will someday run out of material. I would be interested, and I say this most sincerely, to hear what you feel is right and good about the program and how more of it would be a big asset to our world. Remember, we have rather taken entertainment off the table. Thanks again for your reply... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Michael Daniels Inner circle Isle of Man 1609 Posts |
It was good to showcase such a wide variety of magic and magical styles, including the kind of close-up sleight work that is rarely featured on TV these days. I thought P & T treated all the performers with great respect and tried to be careful not to reveal too much on methods. I was sorry, however, that they exposed the gimmicked deck.
I see the basic concept of the show as encouraging innovation in magical methods and presentation - surely a good thing for the art. Mike |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Great. Now I am insane.
Insane enough to ponder why when other Shows expose Magic techniques they're "bad" but when Penn & Teller do it, it is good. Insane enough to ask, is this what Magic has come down to on TV? Some Magicians daring other Magicians to "fool" them? I know, "but it's on TV!" right? So long as we get magic on TV right? And I'm the insane one...
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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markmiller Special user 731 Posts |
It's okay if out of all the many dozens and dozens of hours of TV given to us by Penn & Teller that you're not fond of this single program. So? This program wasn't your cup of tea? It's also perfectly okay if Penn & Teller aren't ever to your taste. Everyone can acccept that too. But when will you be done wasting your time whining about it? Get over it. You sound like a broken record. Got your point. Move on. Get a life.
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Right or Wrong?
Thoughts and discussions pertaining to the generally accepted rules and standards of conduct as it relates to members of the magic industry who create, manufacture or publish. This forum is all about Ethics. Perhaps a reading of the purpose of this section is in order. Seems to me this thread is properly placed and a valid topic. You have been asked to support your views, which would help get us out of the "broken record" syndrome and foment some actual discussion, rather than each side simply stating their opinion...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
You know, we talk a lot about how our number one goal is to entertain audiences. I absolutely agree with that point. No matter how amazing the magic is, it ought to be entertaining to the audience first.
But let's be honest - we're trying to fool them as well. Let's stop pretending that the ONLY goal is to entertain. If that were the case we wouldn't spend hours practicing palming techniques and various sleights and misdirection. You may not like the term "fool us" because it does sound a little harsh, but that's kinda the goal, right? If you don't want to fool your audience, why do you care about flashing a final load? Why do you rehearse a Zarrow shuffle over and over? You're doing those things so you can trick the spectator into believing something is happening when it's not, or hiding something so they don't see it. Is that mean? No. They know you're a magician. They know you're doing tricks. They're aware of it. It's not as though we're honestly saying, "everything you will see is real and I'm not hiding anything." They know better and they're in it for the enjoyment of the performance. Part of that enjoyment comes from being fooled - not knowing how something is done and being amazed by it. If Lance Burton walked out on stage, reached into his jacket pocket and pulled a dove out, no one would care. That bird act made him $100 million because he fooled the daylights out of people who had no idea where those doves came from, and he did it beautifully. We have SO many shows that focus on only the entertainment factor. That's all it's about. So Penn and Teller decided to take a different angle. The performers knew what they were going into. If you want to call this "exposure" then go up to a layman who saw the show and have them explain how everything was done. At most they'll mention something about a gaffes deck, which they could have guessed on their own anyway. There weren't that many other possibilities. And when you ask them specifically how that deck worked, they won't be able to tell you unless they figured it out on their own because Penn and Teller never said anything more about it. They complimented the performers and gave magic a GOOD NAME, unlike the other so-called talent contests on TV that encourage an audience to boo at the performer when he's bad. Do you think THAT'S good for magic? Telling an audience it's acceptable to boo someone when they don't think they're any good? I don't support that at all. That's why "so long as magic gets on TV" doesn't hold up for me as an argument. Stuff like that and the Masked Magician aren't good for our art or performers. I think that Fool Us, while it took a different angle, showcased world class performers that you wouldn't see on television otherwise, and for once it actually showed genuine respect for every person that walked on that stage.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Jack Baines New user 33 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-06 22:29, Pakar Ilusi wrote: I don't think you're insane, in fact as I said at the start I almost always agree with you and even when I don't... well as I said I've already said it. I would like to know where you got this "but it's on TV!" quote from though. Of course that's rhetorical as I know no one has said it. I don't get the impression that any of the supporters here are suggesting that magic on TV 'by any means necessary' is an argument in favour of this, or any other magic show. What were saying, well I couldn't put it any better that Andrew already has. I know you disagree and that's fine, but please, if you wish to continue to argue (and I personally hope you do because there's nothing better than heated, yet respectful debate) address the actual arguments of the other side. Peace and respect, Jack. |
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-07 00:04, markmiller wrote: Hmm... Strange thought for a DISCUSSION FORUM. As king me to go get a life? Really? You know me that well? Wow... Quote:
On 2011-02-07 13:55, Jack Baines wrote: In case you missed it. Here's my point. We should never highlight the "technique" part of the Magic for lay audiences. Focusing on "fooling" does that. That only kindles the fire of exposure, the "It was good but I know how he did it..."-mentality. The cat has been out of the bag since the first Magic Shop opened, I know that. People know it is a trick, I get it. But we as Magicians have to now make them appreciate the entertainment value of it even MORE SO. This Show's angle does not do that imho... Regardless of how good they are (and they were good!) it doesn't seem to matter unless they fool Penn and Teller. The sad part is really this... All the performers on that Show could've and would've done great without having to be judged as to whether they fooled anyone. Almost all those performances were good enough to stand on their own. Hence my logic... That does not matter, so long as they highlight them on TV, who cares about undressing Magic in Public? Like some newbie Auditioning for Magic Castle... Those weren't newbies, it is a disrespect to them and the Art of Magic to "gently" heckle them like that. Yes, I said heckle, as this is no different than a guy shouting from the Audience as to how he thinks you did your trick. He might be wrong, but the damage is done. Whatever happened to "suspension of disbelief"? Why is the unraveling of the technique suddenly so important? By Magicians no less... To succumb to evaluating Magic techniques (for the Public on TV!) on the basis of whether the technique fools other Magicians or not, should be left in the domain of Magicians rehearsals and/or discussions. In clearer words... If it does not fool a Magician, SO WHAT? Are we performing for Magicians? If you ask the Audience and they don't realize how it was done, why ruin it? Because Penn and Teller are "World Class Magicians" and they have to show off that they are soooo well informed about Magic that only one or two Magicians can fool them? WHY? Ego? Anyway, if you don't see what I'm saying... Or you just don't agree... Or you don't really care that much... All I have to say is this... Peace and well wishes.
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Jack Baines New user 33 Posts |
Quote:
In case you missed it. Here's my point. I disagree with that, why should we not highlight the technique? Because it makes for an unruly audience? Perhaps, in fact I know, many audience laymen enjoy magic exactly for the technique. A great presentation and a mystery, or a puzzle to solve. The notion that all audience members want to be dazzled and to 'suspend disbelief' if just wrong. There are many different types or presentations of Magic show, the suspension of disbelief is one type, the puzzle to solve is another, the psychological mentalist is another, another (and one I have certain ethical issues with) is the psychic who claims to have real powers. These different types of show attract different audiences, there is not one mass Magic audience who will be damaged by a certain type of show, if they don't like it they wont watch it. Also, "It was good but I know how he did it..."-mentality"", what is wrong with this, they say it's good, they enjoyed the show. The job of the entertainer isn't to be perceived as some sort of god, it is to be entertaining. If you have achieved that then well done. (and please don't assume by that that I mean ANYTHING is permissible in the quest to entertain) Quote:
The cat has been out of the bag since the first Magic Shop opened, I know that. People know it is a trick, I get it. I'm afraid I just don't see how you can say this after you'r first paragraph, they are completely contradictory statements in my opinion. Quote:
But we as Magicians have to now make them appreciate the entertainment value of it even MORE SO. Again I think you're wrong here. The acts which did not 'fool' P&T were very much appreciated, by both the audience and P&T. They were given just as much time and exposure on the show, they were treat with great respect and praised immensely for their performance. In the end it seem'd as though the 'fool us' part of the show was secondary to the enjoyment of some excellent Magic routines. How good they were was clearly far more important to everybody involved than whether or not they 'fooled' P&T. Quote:
The sad part is really this... All the performers on that Show could've and would've done great without having to be judged as to whether they fooled anyone. Almost all those performances were good enough to stand on their own. Precisely, and they did stand on their own. They weren't being judged, as Andrew has already said, in a Britain's Got Talent, X-Factor or Strictly Come Dancing fashion, where they were berated and chastised for the entertainment of the audience, they were barely judged at all in fact, some of the most praised acts being those which did not pass the 'fool us' test. It astonishes me that after watching the program you can think that those who did not 'fool' them were treat as undeserving to be there. Quote:
Hence my logic... That does not matter, so long as they highlight them on TV, who cares about undressing Magic in Public? Like some newbie Auditioning for Magic Castle... Those weren't newbies, it is a disrespect to them and the Art of Magic to "gently" heckle them like that. Yes, I said heckle, as this is no different than a guy shouting from the Audience as to how he thinks you did your trick. He might be wrong, but the damage is done. C'mon really? They didn't undress the magic, they were at pains not to reveal anything important, and there is quite clearly a massive difference between what they did on this show and someone "shouting from the Audience as to how he thinks you did your trick". There is just no similarity what so ever. I can't argue this point because I just don't see where you're getting that from. Quote:
Whatever happened to "suspension of disbelief"? Why is the unraveling of the technique suddenly so important? By Magicians no less... Already given my thoughts on this. Quote:
In clearer words... I really don't think this is ego, or showing off how much they know. It seems to me that their passion for magic comes across in this show by the truck load. I believe them when they say they just want to enjoy a great Magic show, and they went to the effort of creating a platform to share it with us, and I appreciate that and thank them for it. They succeeded. Quote:
Anyway, if you don't see what I'm saying... Or you just don't agree... Or you don't really care that much... Pakar, I urge to to watch the show again. I understand a difference of opinion and appreciate it, however some of you'r statements, to me, don't seem to tally up with the show I saw factually. Anyway, Greatest respect, Jack. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
" I believe them when they say they just want to enjoy a great Magic show, and they went to the effort of creating a platform to share it with us, and I appreciate that and thank them for it. They succeeded."
Do you not believe the motivation was $$$$$$$ ?
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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