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Kevin Gardner Regular user Richboro, PA 177 Posts |
You've got to be kidding me... new magic makers cups: they weigh one pound and are chrome plated:
http://www.magicmakersinc.com/p-534-chro......nal.aspx They are probably a chrome plated version for the standard cup, you know they one with a huge gap between the mouth bead and the wall? And here's the kicker... they cost $134.00!!! http://www.magictrickstore.com/chrome-cu......859.html I bet the chrome plating will chip off within a week of normal use. How can magic makers get away with this obvious bootleg? Then again, how do they get away with most of their current inventory which is made up of blatant rip offs of well known magic props? |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Actually, these have been around ever since MM put out their first Paul Faux cups. It is very easy to spot the differences. The only reason that they haven't been sold until now is that the first batch, which was made about 6 years ago, was made without proper knowledge on the part of the Chinese of how to do a really good job of plating the cups.
Bear in mind that no matter how egregious we think this is, at the time MM started making their cups, nobody was making a Paul Fox cup of any kind. I'll have a full report on these in about a week. Right now, the least of my worries is what Magic Makers is doing. Posted: Jan 29, 2011 2:12am Let me expand on this a bit. Nobody except the dealers who have these cups actually knows the quality of them. There were two other types of cups Magic Makers tried to make. One was a set of gold plated cups, the other stainless steel. Even if they have succeeded in making a good quality chrome plated cup, it is still quite easy to tell their cups from the genuine Paul Fox cups.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3526 Posts |
Fight the power, brother!
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Pete Biro 1933 - 2018 18558 Posts |
I just saw a Chinese rip version of Dean's Box for about 70% less.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I saw some photos of those Dean's boxes. They are YOUUUUUGLY. They are made of junk plywood. I have an original Dean's box, and it is of excellent quality. He does good work.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
Dean's cardboard prototype looks better than the Chinese version.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts |
I love how people get their panties in a bunch when they don't know a thing.
Looking forward to a real "cups aficionados", like Bill, review. Kent |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I ordered a set of these cups from a seller on eBay.
They are somewhat better than the original MM cups. The mouth bead appears to be soldered shut, perhaps with some kind of brazing. They are a bit heavier than the early MM cups. The original copper cups weigh about 13.5 oz. for the whole set. The new chrome plated cups weigh in at 15.3 ounces for the set. The plating is very good. The old sets were not successful because of a problem with the plating, possibly with the cleaning of the metal. The balance of the cups is very good. The exterior lines are clean. These are possibly the nicest set that MM has produced. HOWEVER --- The cups are varying stages of clean on the inside. Two of them look pretty good. The third looks like it had been used for a flower pot. There actually may be some CNC work on the inside of these, or perhaps they were spun of a thicker piece of copper, then chucked in a lathe and cleaned up on the inside. That sounds like a long trip to take to reach the end product, but it is possible. There are definite spin lines on the inside of the cups. There is also some galling. They still retain the traditional MM lines for these cups, so it is very easy to tell them from genuine Paul Fox cups, if you know where to look. These are decent cups for the money.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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dcjames Special user 577 Posts |
I agree with everything Bill has stated here. My set arrived yesterday and I have to say that for the price, they are good cups. The weight and feel of this set is better than I expected.
On one of my cups, there is a very definitive straight line visible through the plating that runs from the rolled mouth bead up to the lower shoulder bead. It gives the appearence of a seam as if the cups were cast rather than spun. Not sure what the cause of this line would be. I too wonder if the inside of these cups were CNC machined because the interior edges of the shoulder beads are very crisp.
“Magic is very easy to do - poorly.”
Tommy Wonder The Books of Wonder Volume 2 |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
I looked at my cups a bit more today, and realized that the likelihood of having the inside CNC machined was less likely than having the interior finish done by hand on a conventional lathe. It's cheaper to use live labor than to use a high-priced program in China.
But one never knows. In fact, in my experience, two seldom know.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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rklew64 Inner circle 1265 Posts |
Thanks Mr. Palmer for the non-ignorant hands on review. Great video #4!
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Andrew Zuber Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 3014 Posts |
I have to say that for as much bad press at MM gets, my first set of "real" cups (i.e. not plastic) were made by them, and they're great little practice cups. A hundred bucks and I still carry them with me.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
My chief objections to the original MM cups were these:
1) They were extremely dirty on the inside. 2) They mouth beads were not well made -- they had irregular gaps. 3) Sometimes the cups were irregularly shaped, as well. For example, one of them would not accept as large a load as the other two. 4) For most people, they were very difficult to tell from a genuine Paul Fox cup. Now that I have more than 2 dozen sets of the real deal, I can tell them apart at a glance. There is one minor subtlety in the shape of the cup that tells me what I need to know. The biggest problem with this particular situation is the "Antiques Roadshow" syndrome. The seller says, "This is a set of Paul Fox cups that my uncle purchased from Danny Dew in yadda yadda. How much are they worth?" I can see from the shape of the cup that Danny never had this set in his hands -- ever. Posted: Feb 12, 2011 3:12am Dcjames pointed out to me that these cups will not accept a lacrosse ball. That makes it easy to tell them from genuine Paul Fox cups. BTW, regarding the "lacrosse ball test": The permissible diameter of a lacrosse ball is from 2.47 inches to 2.55 inches. That's basically a 1/16" variation. For most Paul Fox cups, you need to have a ball that is at the low end of that spec. I went through nearly a gross of lacrosse balls to find a sufficient quantity of them in various colors to keep myself supplied with decent load balls for Paul Fox cups. If you have an RnT II Paul Fox cup that is sized such that about 1/16" of a lacrosse ball protrudes from it, the ball is too big. It's NOT the cup.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts |
I would like to say if you ever have a problem with any Magic Makers item they will replace it.
dcjames, give them a call and they will send you a new one. |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
What if your problem is "I purchased one of your 'Collectors Card Changing Boxes' from a magic dealer, thinking that it was made by Collectors Workshop, because the letterhead on the instructions featured a logo similar to the CW logo. Will you replace it with the genuine article?"
Some of the products MM sells cannot be replaced with a worker from their stock.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts |
First Mr. Palmer, thanks for the review.
Sometimes there are great deals on original items, probably because the seller didn't know what they had. Usually if someone is buying something for a greatly reduced price over what is normally seen, they are either naive, maybe have been "tricked", or they know it is not the real thing. Unlike other companies who put the actual name, model number etc (HP computers sold at WalMart are not the same as the ones sold by Best Buy) too me this is much more dishonest. I was just commenting on the fact that Magic Makers has great customer service. MM has had some poor quality in the past, but I've seen their improvement in trying to put out a quality product and in fact they check most items before they go out. They do have some quality products. I wont go into the IP dispute etc as it has been well hashed out and will never be resolved. There are many companies "knocking off" items. MM I think takes the brunt of most of the slamming here because they make products that some here on the Café lay claim to and may have right to, but this is not the place to wage that war. Oh no look at these... http://www.ezmagicrobbins.com/Catalog/pr......ID=19545 or these http://www.ezmagicrobbins.com/Catalog/pr......ID=18868 someone needs to stop them! DON'T YELL AT ME NOW. I WAS JUST SHOWING YOU THAT MM ISN'T THE ONLY ONES MAKING C&Bs BUT NO ONE IS ASKING "WHO CARE" ABOUT THEM, ARE THEY? |
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cupsandballsmagic Inner circle 2705 Posts |
Bill's point is that they could be confused by someone not knowing the more intimate details (in this case the small difference in the saddle and load size) for genuine PF cups and not that a particular company is making cups per se. In all honesty I have not handled a set so I cannot attest to their resemblance as far as quality goes.
The Funtime cups you linked to do not purport to be anything else. Maybe if Magic Makers stamped "MM" on the inside it would stop any possible confusion? |
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Kent Messmer Veteran user Montana 337 Posts |
I'm sorry, do the MM cups say that they are Paul Fox? Does someone advertise that they are the same? I don't think the MM does.
My first set of cups I ordered when I was nine from Tannens magic shop. They manufactured them.I still use the same cups today. I had never even heard of Paul Fox cups until this forum. (sorry that's probably blasphemy to some of you) They are probably nice cups, but to the world, they're cups. I'm sure they feel great, look great, but do they "work" better than the Funtime cups? I don't know... |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
It's not blasphemy at all. It's simply a matter of ignorance.
Since you don't understand what the problem is, I'll explain it in very clear detail. If you actually took the trouble to look at the cups and balls museum site, you would already know this. Paul Fox changed the way cups were made in 1932. He designed the first rounded top cups that were used for the cups and balls. The advantage of these cups was that the cups would hold a load that appeared to be much larger than the cup could actually hold. The details of how this illusion worked are on my web site. Paul made six sets of these which he gave to friends of his, including Dai Vernon. He never had any intention of marketing them. In 1959, Tannen's commissioned Connie Haden to make this style of cup, because there was a demand for them. According to several sources, they were going to call them the "Slydini Cups." However, Slydini did not approve of putting his name with them because the design was pinched from Paul Fox and because Slydini did not actually do a cups and balls routine. So Connie marketed them as "The Ultra Cups." They were silver plated copper -- $22.50 a set. Now, you would do well to find a set at all. When they hit the market, they go for around $3000 to $4000 a set. The term here is very rare and highly collectible. Only six sets of the original run are known to exist. At that time, Paul Fox, who had been an engraver and jewelry designer for Tiffany's in New York City, was living in Phoenix, Arizona, because of ill health. So he licensed Danny Dew to produce his cups, as well as some of his other props. It took Danny several sets to get them right, but when he did, they sold like a house afire. This was about 1960. Frank Garcia endorsed them in his book The Very Best of Cups and Balls, and EVERYBODY had to have them. They aren't actually rare at all. There were probably about 1000 sets made. When Danny was no longer able to produce the cups, Jeff Busby acquired the rights to produce them from Danny. There was some controversy over that, because, evidently, the rights to produce these cups were not transferrable. The Paul Fox estate did not have any say in the matter. When Jeff started producing the cups, the prices went through the roof. Originally, a set of Paul Fox cups by Danny Dew sold for about $15 to $35, depending on the metal and the finish. The expensive ones were the silver plated ones. When Jeff started producing them, the price multiplied tenfold -- or more. And any time anyone put a set of them on eBay, Jeff got the auction pulled on the basis of conflicting with his trademark. This was patent nonsense, and once eBay finally got wise to what was going on, they stopped him from selling for a while. It was basically illegal restraint of trade. When MM started producing their cups, genuine Paul Fox cups were going for $500 to $1000 a set, depending on the condition and the provenance. Many of the prominent cups and balls workers quit using them, because they were basically impossible to replace. So MM started making the cups, based on a set of Paul Fox cups that someone in the magic community sent them. The presence of these copies did not diminish the value of the originals, as long as people knew what they were. The early ones were fairly easy to spot. You would just look at the mouth bead. If it didn't match all the way around, you knew that they were not the real McCoy. Or if the interior looked like it was coated with grease, same thing. A lot of people were basically offended that they would copy anything quite so blatantly. However, there were no laws violated by MM. What nobody knows is how many of these sets were sold to unsuspecting customers by unscrupulous magic dealers. But the discussion here is not about the relative merits of Paul Fox cups and Funtime cups. The Funtime cups are really lightweight junk. They are generally cleaner than the MM cups, but they are really irregular in shape and generally do not nest very well. The new MM cups are a big improvement over the original ones. As far as MM's policy of replacing anything that's defective -- well, if they refrained from making defective merchandise in the first place, they wouldn't need to replace any products at all. Take a look at the Vanishing Candy trick and compare it to the CW Vanishing Lifesavers. If you vanish the candy in the MM version, and you give the "empty" tube to a spectator, all they have to do is shake it, and the gaff falls out. That doesn't happen with the CW version. The objection is to the number of proprietary tricks they have knocked off. Badlands Bob The Brass Nest of Boxes The Vanishing Lifesavers The Pen Through Bill Perfect Time And that's just the start of the list.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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mmreed Inner circle Harrisburg, PA 1432 Posts |
So when you say
"In 1959, Tannen's commissioned Connie Haden to make this style of cup, because there was a demand for them. According to several sources, they were going to call them the "Slydini Cups." However, Slydini did not approve of putting his name with them because the design was pinched from Paul Fox and because Slydini did not actually do a cups and balls routine. So Connie marketed them as "The Ultra Cups." They were silver plated copper -- $22.50 a set. Now, you would do well to find a set at all. When they hit the market, they go for around $3000 to $4000 a set. The term here is very rare and highly collectible. Only six sets of the original run are known to exist. " this says that Tanned ripped off Paul Fox and in a sense did what everyone complains magic Makers does with props? Everyone bashes MM, yet this clearly shows some of the respected folks did the same thing and people seem to turn a blind eye. Not trying to start a flame or argument - but I thought it was interesting to read that tannens basically stole the design from Fox and marketed it. There was a similar claim between Sherwood and RNTII I believe... seems like cup design is an often pilfered area. As always, Bill is a wealth of info. Thanks Bill.
Mark Reed
Wedding and Event Entertainment |
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