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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 12, 2017 07:55 pm 0 Quote: On Sep 11, 2017, Card_Flips wrote: I've stumbled across some of his older posts Definitely looks like man with a lot of knowledge Shame Here is some further information about DOC, some of which is heresay and some of which is not. I personally have no interest in any of this except to make a post for the members who have inquired and will try to be as objective as possible. However, objectivity can often be in the eyes of the beholder so the following is not meant to be negative or critical, but simply to state what I am aware of or believe to be so. According to hearsay from a fairly reliable source, back at the time DOC was posting and subsequently banned, he evidently frequented a coffee shop in NY that was somewhat of a meeting place for magicians, wannabies and newbies, not for card or dice hustlers. He was evidently known as a cheat to that group (by his own declaration), would be introduced as such to new people and would discuss cheating, demo his card cheating moves and give advice to many about the subject matter. I don't know if this meeting place still exists but mention it perhaps as a point of interest to some who may live in the NY area. Maybe a local magic store may have information on this. There are a number of casinos in proximity to the greater NY area so I checked with some professional hustlers who worked the casino table games and casino poker games in that arena at the time DOC was posting on this BB. No one I spoke with had ever heard of DOC so he evidently was not active in that venue or perhaps only worked on the streets of Harlem and thereabouts if indeed he was in fact an active hustler at all. Also, he had a Facebook page under his name with his picture on which he claimed to be a professional cheat. I checked and he still has this Facebook page however the professional cheat part has been deleted. He does have some videos there, one of which is him doing a very nice demo of his dice switch. Also, some of his card move videos may still be on YouTube for those who have an interest in checking that out. I do recall that on his posts, he would never quote other hustlers of his supposed acquaintance but would always seem to quote magicians and books, especially those written by magicians, using them as his authority to "prove" a point in his argument. I never met a pro hustler who would do that and indeed most hustlers don't even read books by magicians. However, his gambling demo moves were nicely performed and evidently were helpful to the newbies and those looking to master this type work. However, I personally think he performed these demos primarily for ego gratification and only secondarily to be helpful to others but regardless of his intent they were of benefit to some. As I said, I have no interest as to who DOC is or what he may or may not be doing, but since he evidently is of interest or fascination to some on this BB, I am therefore providing what little I know. Perhaps others who have greater knowledge may want to add to this. Oh, one more thing. As I recall he claimed to have invented rap. In fact, that claim may still exist on some of his posts on this BB that have not been deleted. I will say he was a provocative and "interesting" guy with an "in yo face" jive-ass street demeanor which evidently excited and/or intrigued some of his followers on this BB, almost to the point of unquestioning "cultism." He may also have conned some people who should have known better. He could be offensive and confrontational to those who challenged his authority or questioned his claims, but could also be gracious at appropriate times. I recall some interesting discussions I had with him since, believe it or not, I can be somewhat confrontational at times also, and liked to remind DOC to not give up his day job at McDonald's. I will say this though, he did help to liven up this BB, generated excitement and I had fun with my occasional confrontations with him but though it was all mostly just humorous BS although I don't think that was necessarily his actual intent.
Peterson Regular user 159 Posts	Posted: Sep 12, 2017 09:00 pm 0 What about reputation?
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts	Posted: Sep 12, 2017 09:11 pm 0 Come on Cag, give the guy a break. Here's a dice video for you. It's me at my very early stage of learning dice moves (to stay on topic). It's so bad that it may help you to relax . http://www.arnoldmcdonald.org/code/publi......=6200085 www.arnoldmcdonald.org
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 12, 2017 10:33 pm 0 @AMcD: WOW! Now I am really relaxed.
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 01:28 am 0 Quote: There are a number of casinos in proximity to the greater NY area so I checked with some professional hustlers who worked the casino table games and casino poker games in that arena at the time DOC was posting on this BB. No one I spoke with had ever heard of DOC so he evidently was not active in that venue or perhaps only worked on the streets of Harlem and thereabouts if indeed he was in fact an active hustler at all. Cagliostro Cag why did you not simply ask Doc if he worked casinos or not? If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it. Tommy
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 06:23 am 0 Quote: On Sep 12, 2017, tommy wrote: Cag why did you not simply ask Doc if he worked casinos or not? The reason being is when I first began to post on this BB, DOC attacked me immediately and was very confrontational and disparaging because I questioned his assertions of being a cheat and challenged many of his allegations as being hyperbole or downright horseshit. I have been around and known several professional hustlers over the years and his claims and boastful bloviating did not ring true, so I challenged and confronted him right back. Quite frankly, I was absolutely amazed beyond all comprehension that so many people blindly accepted many of his assertions and wild bloviating as being true. Being new to the BB at that time I did not realize that most who posted on The Gambling Spot had absolutely no experience when it came to actual hustling and cheating and were essentially enamored with watching and learning basic overexposed gambling type moves, accepted that nonsense as being the "real work" and were enamored with those who professed to be "real" cheaters. That absolutely, and I mean absolutely, flabbergasted me to no end. Since my relationship with DOC was so confrontational due to his attacks and because I did not believe most of what he was ranting about, I decided to check with a few of those whom I knew were actually "working" the bigger casino and poker games in the greater NY area. I did not feel, based upon DOC's boastful rants and hyperbole, it would make any sense to try to get an honest answer from someone like this. After all, he was claiming on a public forum and public Facebook page complete with his picture to be a cheat and what professional cheat would do something as idiotic as that, unless of course he was no longer active? That doesn't mean that DOC did not do some small time cheating or hustling on the streets of Harlem but who in his right mind would work with someone like that...someone who was extremely well known in the magic community, made expose videos of the moves he supposedly cheated with, had a Facebook page with a picture of himself claiming publicly to be a cheat and had a blabber mouth so big you could fly a Boeing 747 jet plane into it. Working with someone like that, and putting one's livelihood and safety into his hands would be so monumentally moronic that it is beyond any rational argument to the contrary. So to answer your question tommy, that's why. By the way, if DOC can get unbanned and wants to come back on the BB, it might prove to be fun to have him back and I would have no problem confronting him directly where and if necessary.
jjsanvert Special user Paris, France 581 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 08:34 am 0 Doc is still going to this coffe shop (this is where I met him the first time I saw him). He did not cheat in casinos, but in Harlem. He introduced me to one of the joints where he cheated and I did some card magic to these gentlemen at his request. Cag, cheating in Harlem against guys who get guns in their pants require you to do some REALLY nice work. And he does. Professionally. JJS
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 01:36 pm 0 Here are a couple quotes from one if not the first conversation Doc had with you Cag: Quote: On Jan 25, 2012, Unknown419 wrote: @Tommy I definitely agree with you. I couldn't have said it any better myself. @AMcD I agree with you as well. @ Readers. Don't get me wrong and think that I think that Cagliostro is totally wrong in what he's saying because I'm agreeing with Tommy and AMcD, that is not true. Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread. Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep. The guys that he probably hustled with if they're not already dead, don't even get on the internet, and those that do eyesight is not all that great or is not computer savvy, so since they are set in their ways, no other way is right but theirs, and TO ME this is what Tommy is trying to explain of which I agree with him on. Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers). What Gagliostro did or what his crew did worked because it pertained to a particular game that he/they were trying to beat, either it was simple or intricate, it doesn't matter as long as it got the money. What you have to do is the same thing, direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is. This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in. This is why Cagliostro stated that some hustler's only did about 2 or 3 great moves because that's all they needed in order to get the money for the particular games that their culture played. Each culture have games that's peculiar only to them, in other words, what's the use in me learning how to cheat at Euchre (a game that I have never played) when my culture game is Georgia Skin; a game that you might not have ever heard of or played. Note: This is why you don't see a cheating technique or combination for this game in the “Side Strippers or Humps” section of both Blue Book catalogs because the whites just don't play our games. While I'm on the subject of games. Quote: Showing card techniques and exposing card moves has NOTHING to do with being a professional cheat and good cheats don’t do it. Period. So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos. Quote: I would … suggest that you have not been exposed to or are not conversant to the type people I am referring to. The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off. Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole * book. Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing. If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on. I mean no disrespect to whom this may concern but I have over a 100 cheating gambling books on my shelf and none of them, I REPEAT, NOT ONE OF THEM was written by a black man (a tipper); so if we didn't do the tipping who did? Bottom Line: Like I previously stated in a thread a long time ago we all long to admired in some kind of way for our skills and achievements in what we did in life and this is why we're here at the Gambling Spot. You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on. Singing An Old Commercial Jingle I guess, I'm a tipper, you're a tipper, they're a tipper, … wouldn't y'all like to be a tipper too. Respectfully Doc To which Cag replied Quote: On Jan 25, 2012, Cagliostro wrote: Quote: On 2012-01-25 15:50, Unknown419 wrote: Cagliostro is speaking from a different perspective that he thinks applies to all avenues of the hustling field when it doesn't. If your field of study is the casino then listen to him and learn, if it's the streets or the clubs then you might want to listen to someone else here on this thread. No disagreement here. Casinos, country clubs, private games with well-heeled business people and casino card rooms is what I know. That is all I have to know. I don’t know about street hustling and am very thankful I don’t have to. When Willy Sutton, the notorious bank robber, was asked why he robbed banks he said, “Because that is where the money is.” Same applies to casinos, country clubs and well-heeled players. Quote: Remember in Cagliostro's era and most of mine as well, there was no YouTube and this is how the hustlers kept the sleepers (those who didn't know) sleep. It was all very secret when I first started out and I learned directly from Vegas hustlers. In those days you had to keep your mouth shut and to be in with other hustlers you had to prove yourself in action. Talking about what you could do was BS. You had to be there doing it or you were just another sucker who said he knew a few things. Nowadays it is not really any different. It is still done that way. The best and newest stuff is still circulated from hustler to hustler, not on YouTube or DVDs. Quote: Tommy have a whole lot of wisdom of which at many a times have shut me up, made me listen and put me in my place and I very much respect him for that because no one has all the sense (answers). Are you two guys trying to play collusion against me? LOL Quote: …direct your cheating abilities and techniques to the particular game that you're trying to beat; whatever it is. No argument here. Quote: This is why to answer the original question of this thread "which is the best cheating move?" has no one right answer. The best cheating move is the move that you need to do in order to get the money for the particular game you're playing or the particular environment that you're playing in. We agree again and that was stated in my first post on this thread. Quote: So what you're telling this forum on the down-low is that Tony Giorgio wasn't a professional nor was he a good cheat. Because he clearly stated in his video that he tipped some of his hand mucking moves to Dai Vernon of which Dai Vernon never mentioned who taught him in his videos. No, not at all. Giorgio was a pro hustler in his younger days and I respect him and his ability. However, he tipped some things when he became a magician and entertainer to Vernon and Miller but he was careful as to what he tipped. He also stated that he would not tip things that would hurt hustlers that he knew who were still active. I will say that his muck moves in general are somewhat dated and would not fly in a casino environment. Different type muck moves are used nowadays. The latest stuff is not being tipped to magicians and demonstrators. It is being used. When it finally gets in books, on YouTube or on expose DVDs, it is pretty after the fact and the hustlers (casino) have moved on to something else or changed the workings significantly. Quote: Not only did good cheats DEMONSTRATE techniques, they (Erdnase) tipped a whole * book. Scarne is a tipper....one of my cheating teachers told me that all the hustler's in the service didn't care for him because he was a coat-puller (tattle-tale/snitcher). The white old timers told me the same thing. If you're right and they didn't tip techniques like you said, you've just call our famous Professor Dai Vernon a straight out liar because he said that Dad Steven's demonstrated his technique to him, so did Al Kennedy, so did Walter Scott and so did others and the list goes on and on and on. Erdnase is questionable and severely dated. He may have been a part time hustler/magician/demonstrator and was hyped by Vernon which made him popular among hobbyist and magicians. I have know some incredibley capable hustlers who never even heard of Erdnase. Scarne was not a hustler,he was a magician. Vernon was not a hustler, he was a magician. Neither could get the money. Kennedy and his center deal is a joke in my opinion and Walter Scott was made famous by Vernon and was a small timer if he hustled at all. Since you mentioned Giorgio, he is of the same opinion as I just stated above regarding Scarne, Erdnase, Scott, Kennedy,the Center Deal, etc. Not that I am relying on him to back me up, I am just mentioning this because you mentioned Giorgio. We are not talking about magic books or DVD exposes here. The hustlers that I have known, and the really good ones, DO NOT DEMONSTRATE what they do - ever. ... These type people have spent much of their life suppressing this self-defeating idiotic boasting and showing off and what they do and how they do may not be in your books. You are talking about moves here . There is so much more to this than the seconds, bottoms and run-up, etc. I’m not saying those things can’t be used at the right time and in the right spot, but there is so much more to this that that. I suggest the really big, big scores that run into the hundreds of thousands actually use little or no moves or maybe an occasional move. Quote: Bottom Line: …You did what you did well, I do what I do well, others do what they do well and so on and so on. I think we are pretty much in agreement on most of this, with perhaps minor disagreement in some areas. Fact is, you and I live in different worlds. If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it. Tommy
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 01:42 pm 1 Er, guys, this thread is about my videos... If you wanna talk about Doc, I suggest you start a new one? www.arnoldmcdonald.org
Mr. Bones Veteran user 320 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 02:07 pm 0 Counterpoint: Cag doesn't like Doc, never has and he never will. Everything Cag posts about Doc is tainted with the fact that Doc called Cag out repeatedly as a blowhard, and did so at least as often as Cag called Doc out as a blowhard. When you have two people who despise each other to the degree that these two do (despite Cag's claim that he isn't interested in Doc), the comments made by either of them as relates to the other are not only untrustworthy, but usually fundamentally untrue. The reality is that Doc and Cag both know a fair bit about hustling, but neither likes to be thought of as knowing any less than the other. Take what either of them say (as relates to the other one) with a very, very large grain of salt. Personally, I enjoy reading them both for their efforts to share interesting information and elicit reasonably high quality general discussion here on the forum historically, and elsewhere (where both of them spoke more openly). But Doc isn't here, and very likely won't be back. Thus it's probably best to move on to other topics of interest here in the ole' "Spot"! (Now back to our regular scheduled programming - Arnold's videos!) Mr. Bones "Hey Rube"!
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 02:34 pm 0 Well, I was not talking about Doc. I am talking about Cag's Ripping Yarn the one about there being a number of casinos in proximity to the greater NY area, where he checked with some professional hustlers who worked the casino table games and casino poker games in that arena at the time DOC was posting on this BB. Where no one Cag spoke with had ever heard of DOC, whereon Cag concluded that Doc evidently was not active in that venue or perhaps only worked on the streets of Harlem and thereabouts if indeed he was, in fact, an active hustler at all. It is a great story, which they ought to make it into a film - despite the fact that it makes no sense because Doc had already told Cag that he Doc does not work casinos. Maybe, Donald Duck or even Micky Mouse could play Cags role. If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it. Tommy
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 02:53 pm 1 Okay guys. Certainly got some "hot" activity going on the BB which was actually my intent and using DOC as subject matter achieved precisely that. Sorry AMcD. I initially did not realize that answering a query about DOC (a distant memory on this BB) would explode and hijack your thread to such a degree. I should have started a new thread and won't respond at length here to DOC followups. @jjsanvert: I really respect your calm and well thought out non-confrontational and substantive reply and agree with your comments 100%. You are also a very skillful and knowledgeable guy (as is AMcD) and I enjoy and appreciate both your work from what I have seen. If I decide to reply to anyone else, I will probably have to start another thread as we can't do this to AMcD's thread and I apologize to AMcD for this. It really got out of hand and the length of my comments and the replies really don't belong here. May have to have the admin move this to another thread but can't do so right now.
SimonCard Special user 601 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 03:01 pm 0 I really enjoy watching all of Arnold's videos. I hope there are more videos coming on this thread.
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 03:43 pm 0 Quote: On Sep 13, 2017, tommy wrote: Well, I was not talking about Doc. I am talking about Cag's Ripping Yarn the one about there being a number of casinos in proximity to the greater NY area, where he checked with some professional hustlers who worked the casino table games and casino poker games in that arena at the time DOC was posting on this BB. Where no one Cag spoke with had ever heard of DOC, whereon Cag concluded that Doc evidently was not active in that venue or perhaps only worked on the streets of Harlem and thereabouts if indeed he was, in fact, an active hustler at all. It is a great story, which they ought to make it into a film - despite the fact that it makes no sense because Doc had already told Cag that he Doc does not work casinos. Maybe, Donald Duck or even Micky Mouse could play Cags role. I did this check before I started to address DOC's posts and before we had the posted conversations you stated above. Usually best to get one's facts straight but if you think otherwise, that's okay too.
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 04:38 pm 0 Cag if you can provide any evidence at all of your alleged facts then you just might be able to persuade the jury that you are telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it. Tommy
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 13, 2017 09:27 pm 0 Quote: On Sep 13, 2017, tommy wrote: Cag if you can provide any evidence at all of your alleged facts then you just might be able to persuade the jury that you are telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Duh...and how do you propose that be done, Judge tommy? Duhhh...Provide you with the names and contact information of a few active hustlers in the greater NY area so that some unknown guy who calls himself tommy and posts on The Magic Café forum can contact them...Duh...Sound like a great idea...Duh. Perhaps if I told them you were an ardent fan of S.W. Erdnase and have read TEATCT continually it would help solidify your credibility and credentials. Yup...that would do it and I'm sure they would definitely want to talk with you...Yup...no doubt about it.
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16543 Posts	Posted: Sep 14, 2017 06:21 am 0 No, no, Cag, you may certainly keep the names and address of your invisible friends the professional hustlers a top secret. What you cannot keep secret is the evidence that when you first began to post on this BB, Doc politely told you that he did not cheat in casinos. What is not secret is that Doc from the time he began posting here always said he did not cheat in casinos as all the old boys here know. The new boys can use the search button and see what Doc said about casino cheating. We can all see that you Cag are an Old boy who has been a member of the Magic Café since 2004. If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it. Tommy
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 14, 2017 02:12 pm 0 Whatever you say tommy. You might want to get a life outside of the BB. It is starting to have dramatic effect on your thought processes.
Mr. Bones Veteran user 320 Posts	Posted: Sep 14, 2017 02:21 pm 0 My recollection after many exchanges with Doc was that he hustled private games, often travelling in order to do so. Other hustlers, some who posted briefly here on the forum knew Doc from his travels, and essentially confirmed Doc's street cred. For the old timers, an example would be Memphis who also hustled private games and posted here for a while. Doc had always been quite friendly with magicians, such that he eventually wound up as a technical consultant on Damien Neiman's "Shade" movie. His profile was raised somewhat when he was involved with the premiere of that movie, and his profile was raised even more so when he became a prolific poster on a few assorted internet forums (including this one). I agree with Cag that it is somewhat odd that Doc, as a hustler, choose to maintain such a high profile, but I always read into it that the kinds of folks Doc got into games with certainly didn't read the Magic Café, or any of the other forums Doc posted to. In effect, Doc only had a high profile with magicians, and (as Cag calls them) internet hobbyists, but he was fundamentally unknown outside that circle, and could travel freely to the games he played in, and remain anonymous at least in terms of his being known as anything but just another player. I have no recollection of Doc ever claiming, or suggesting that he hustled in casinos. Mr. Bones "Hey Rube"!
Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts	Posted: Sep 14, 2017 02:35 pm 0 You make good points Bones and I have no disagreement with any of what you wrote immediately above. However, I don't think I will ever understand his high profile association among magicians and his video demos...but whatever??? "Different strokes for different folks" I guess, but wonder if it ever came back to haunt him?
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