The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Appeal of the Chop Cup (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
Andrew Zuber
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2662 Posts

Profile of Andrew Zuber
Is that a serious question?
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
bishthemagish
View Profile
Inner circle
6036 Posts

Profile of bishthemagish
I like to open with the chop dice cup - because it is faster and draws the audience in. Then close with the cups and balls.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 11:11, Dr. Magic wrote:
Don Alan ia gone. Does it matter if you do his routine?


It that's a serious question, perhaps you should explain what you mean by it.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Andrew Zuber
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2662 Posts

Profile of Andrew Zuber
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 11:22, bishthemagish wrote:
I like to open with the chop dice cup - because it is faster and draws the audience in. Then close with the cups and balls.

I've thought about doing something like this but wasn't sure...do you ever find that it's overkill to have two separate routines with cups in the same set? Or perhaps using the dice provides enough difference?
I'd like to do something with a leather chop cup for an opener as well, but I don't know how I'd feel about sacrificing my cups and balls routine to do the chop cup instead.

Bill - just tell me what to do. I'm tired of having to think on my own. Grad school makes me do enough of that already.
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
HerbLarry
View Profile
Special user
Poof!
731 Posts

Profile of HerbLarry
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 11:11, Dr. Magic wrote:
Don Alan ia gone. Does it matter if you do his routine?


The term "Magic Vulture" comes to mind if I read you correctly.
You know why don't act naive.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
There is no more wrong with doing Don Alan's routine than there is with doing the Vernon cups and balls routine, the Symphony of the Rings, a routine with a Svengali deck, or anything else that was invented, published, sold or used by any magician who has passed away.

If anyone has such a ridiculous idea, then apply it to music. It would be wrong to play anything by Bach, Chopin, Beethoven, Robert Johnson, Elvis Presley, John Philip Sousa or any other dead composer or artist.

Is the proximity of our art to fantasy causing brain damage in some of our performers?

Inquiring minds want to know.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
The Don Alan routine was marketed. So, buy a version.

What bothers me is around 40 years ago I purchased Harold Sterling's Short and Long Rope and do it to this day. But there are hundreds that saw someone do it, never bought it, and do it.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Dr. Magic
View Profile
Veteran user
355 Posts

Profile of Dr. Magic
Elvis is dead, but he didn't write his own material ( his name appears on one song ). Anyone can do material he performed ( Bill Palmer, your Texas brothers, ZZ Top, did Viva Las Vegas ).

Big Momma Thornton did Hound Dog before Elvis. Does that mean he shouldn't have recored it? Was he a 'vulture'?

My question about the Alan routine was a serious one. What's wrong with using it since he's gone?
kentfgunn
View Profile
Inner circle
Merritt Island FL
1639 Posts

Profile of kentfgunn
On a different level, for some, using other people's ideas is wrong. Are we breaking any laws? No we're not. Are we dishonoring the memory of great magicians, who have moved on to that close-up room in the sky? I don't think so.

By copying the works of another we limit our own performances. You can buy the Racherbaumer book on Don Alan; "In a Class by Himself". Jon Racherbaumer breaks down most of Don Alan's best known performances. He does a detailed analysis on how and why Don did every move. The level, to which, the Alan routines are broken down is astonishing. If you were a dedicated copyist you could undoubtedly mimic everything Don Alan did down to the smallest detail. You'd have a large selection of great magic tricks to astound any lay audience.

These tricks don't belong to you, just because you bought the book from some other guy on the Café for twenty bucks. Don Alan spent his life honing and perfecting these tricks. Much of what worked for Don Alan won't work well for you. Your personality and your very self is a different person. You'll end up a jaded hack, unable to find the real magic that's inside of you.

Slydini's magic has also been copied interminably. Slydini's students who put their own unmistakable stamp on his ideas and thoughts are some of the strongest magicians out there. Bill Wisch instantly comes to mind. Bill (who I saw lecture when I was a kid and who I got to hang out with, 'cause I know his kid, is as good as anyone!), takes Slydini's approach and has created his own signature effects and style.

When starting out in magic, studying and learning classic effects, like the chop cup, as done by the masters is a great step. Once you've done that, to truly progress I feel you need to add your own touches and ideas to the skeletons left us by the greats.

You've every right, legal and otherwise to perform effects published. It doesn't make what you're doing right for magic. We don't need a bunch of people emulating Gazzo with his routine. They're out there by the dozens. Gazzo probably doesn't give a rat's behind. I don't care either. It's simply limiting those performers who can only see magic as the result of the work of other people. Memorizing patter, mocking the movements is a beginner's path. If you've been using someone else's routine for twenty years and you haven't appreciably changed the moments, patter and timing, I think you're robbing yourself and your audiences of the greatest thing you have to offer; yourself.

So, to those who are trying to become Don Alan, Dai Vernon or Gazzo; carry on. Make a living off the backs of the greats. No one will remember you when you're gone because you have not added to the art. You've sucked some of the life out of it instead.

KG
Dr. Magic
View Profile
Veteran user
355 Posts

Profile of Dr. Magic
Gazzo DOES care about people using his material, even the marketed ones.
cupsandballsmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
2706 Posts

Profile of cupsandballsmagic
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 13:08, Dr. Magic wrote:
Elvis is dead, but he didn't write his own material ( his name appears on one song ). Anyone can do material he performed ( Bill Palmer, your Texas brothers, ZZ Top, did Viva Las Vegas ).

Big Momma Thornton did Hound Dog before Elvis. Does that mean he shouldn't have recored it? Was he a 'vulture'?

My question about the Alan routine was a serious one. What's wrong with using it since he's gone?


These performers paid royalties when they covered others songs. It's different from lifting someone else's routine because you are being lazy.

I think that Bill might be the wrong person to argue with relating to copyright, royalties and the music business....

As for coyping Gazzo, I have seen people doing his stuff line for line. It stinks because they are not Gazzo and you will be able to perform your own material better than anybody else ever will.
Andrew Zuber
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
2662 Posts

Profile of Andrew Zuber
This is why I treat the patter included with a trick in the same way I treat a set of IKEA directions - a quick glance and then I set it aside. Not to say that you can't learn some interesting things and be inspired by what someone else wrote, but why use the same script? Why do the exact same routine? How does that advance anything? This is why seeing the Vernon routine for the hundredth time does nothing for me, and the thousands of magicians doing his routine ruined it for me by the time I actually saw VERNON do it. When I was first starting out, I didn't know who Dai Vernon was so that wasn't the first place I went to look for material. By the time I got around to it, I was no longer impressed, and sadly to this day, I don't think the Vernon routine is anything spectacular. Sue me for thinking it, but unlike many, I don't list it among my favorites. Had I seen it when I was first starting out, perhaps it would be different. I know that historically it's important. I know it has inspired many to do great things. I wouldn't dare take that away from it, and I would give anything to see it done live by Vernon himself. I don't, however, care to see a hundred different regurgitations (is that a word?) of the same thing.

I think if you're doing what Tom Mullica does with his Red Skelton show - a genuine tribute to one of your heroes, that's one thing. He has the blessing of Red's family and he does it to honor Red. If you're doing a routine as an honor to someone you look up to, I think that's fantastic. I'm working on something like that at the moment; it's a fun project. But if you're doing it because someone has already done all of the work for you, you're just running in place. You're not taking the art anywhere and frankly, it's boring. At least come up with your own patter, change a move or two, use a different final load...do something to cater it to YOU rather than doing what's already been done (and done better.)
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
It's interesting how people can speak the same language, say basically the same things, and still apparently be arguing with one another.

My remark about "thinking like Don Alan stopping short at the point where you are pinching other people's material and calling it your own" was not about people who perform the Don Alan routine.

You need to understand the background and sources of Don Alan's material to really understand that remark.

Don Alan was to magic as Elvis Presley was to music. He was a stylist, not an originator. The difference was that Elvis' "cover versions" generated income for the people who wrote the original material. Carl Perkins wrote Blue Suede Shoes. He loved Elvis, because Elvis sold more copies of that song in a month than Carl sold in his whole lifetime. And Carl got paid for it. But the material that Don used did not generate income for the originators of the tricks he used, with few exceptions, such as the chop cup, itself.

He pinched "Don Alan's Great Put-on" from Billy McComb. That will give you an idea of what I'm referring to.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Dr. Magic
View Profile
Veteran user
355 Posts

Profile of Dr. Magic
Don Allan would go nuts over people using his material, but he took material from others. Just ask Johnny Thompson. Like Mr. Palmer, you have to know the REAL history of some performers.

I write my own material, I just raised the question because many people use the material of others. Think "Dr, Bob" and you'll see someone that takes an entire act from someone.
HerbLarry
View Profile
Special user
Poof!
731 Posts

Profile of HerbLarry
I meant no offence Mr. Magic. When I read your post I saw a vision of Magicians waiting for X to pass so they could steal his act, thus the "if I read you correctly".
You know why don't act naive.
Pete Biro
View Profile
1933 - 2018
18558 Posts

Profile of Pete Biro
Bill: What was "The Great Put On?"
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
That was the McCombical Prediction. Don called it Don Alan's Great Put-On.

You a volunteer up from the audience. You have six blue cards and six red cards. You show the six blue cards that are all different, and explain that one card will be a prediction of the card the spectators will select from the other group. You show one of these six cards and place it somewhere that the spectators can keep an eye on it, such as a stand, or in the hands of another spectator.

Then you explain that the six red cards are all different. You show them to the audience -- the six cards are all actually duplicates of the prediction card. You miscall them as you show them to the audience. Then you have the spectator select one. You show the card to the audience, and naturally it's a match. You give it to the spectator. Now you ask the spectator to name the card he has "freely selected." He calls the wrong card. After a lot of bickering, you look at the card, and it has, indeed, changed. Then you magically change the prediction to match the card.

It's also done with record album covers, photographs, postcards and paintings.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Dr. Magic
View Profile
Veteran user
355 Posts

Profile of Dr. Magic
Billy was a great inventor of magic and illusions. He was funny, kind and generous.

Don was....an angry, paranoid, curmudgeon.
Bill Palmer
View Profile
Eternal Order
Only Jonathan Townsend has more than
24279 Posts

Profile of Bill Palmer
I knew both of them. I really liked Billy McComb. The last time I saw him was at the Magic Circle Centenary.

Don was really strange. He would show you a trick and say, "Use this! It's great! Go ahead, use it." Then when you did, he would bite your head off.

Roger Crabtree wanted more than anything to be a great magician. He equated winning close-up trophies with being great. He didn't know where to begin, though. So at one of the TAOM conventions, he went up to Don and asked him what he should do to win the close-up trophy.

Don decided to pull his leg. He told him to work out a certain card trick, and in the middle of it, to have a mouse pop out of a hole in a Derby he was wearing, run around the brim of the hat and duck back into the hole. He didn't figure on Roger's determination. So Roger worked on it for a year. He entered the TAOM convention close-up contest and won the trophy.

Don got his knickers in a twist over the whole matter. "HE WON THE TROPHY WITH MY MATERIAL!!!" Don was LIVID!
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
55Hudson
View Profile
Special user
Minneapolis
981 Posts

Profile of 55Hudson
Bill - with all due respect to those that have passed - that is a funny story! I am also an active member of a small, but international, car club (MOCNA), and I can't help but see similarities in the passion and depth of opinion with the two organizations. Most interesting are the right/wrong and good/bad discussions. There could be a soap opera or sitcom somewhere in this ....

Hudson
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Appeal of the Chop Cup (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.18 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL