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bhayankaran Regular user India 146 Posts |
This is one good opportunity to have live sessions with your favourite magicians
Check http://www.ellusionist.com/insession |
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Stucky Inner circle I'm Batman! 1355 Posts |
But my favorite magicians aren't on there...
Official Thread Killer
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MagicBrent Inner circle 2574 Posts |
Ouch!
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ted french Inner circle Columbus Ohio 1946 Posts |
Where is Tony Hassini?
P3
practice practice perform. |
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Dr. Magic Veteran user 355 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-11 09:42, ted french wrote: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! |
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crestfallenLyric Veteran user 307 Posts |
I saw this and thought it was pretty incredible. I'd love to get a session with John Guastaferra or Joshua Jay sometime!
"It is better for a man to honor his profession, than to be honored by it." - Robert-Houdin
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3009 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-11 04:31, Stucky wrote: Dan Sperry's on there. Just based on superficial observations, I'm betting you and he could find at least a couple of things to talk about.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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huruey Loyal user York, UK 205 Posts |
I have mixed feelings about this. There are some truly great performers that I highly respect on there that I'm sure will make it worth peoples time and money. However, it seems to me like the very personal idea of a mentor is being given a horrible commercial makeover, stacked on a shelf and spewed with phrases from the Ellusionist book of hype.
"Who will you choose?" (Quoting the email Ellusionist sent out) This is the kind of phrase I'd hope to only see on some mindless reality TV show. I don't think some of the names deserve to be listed alongside some of the others. It seems to devalue what some of these people have to offer. The page suggests that people should research what each professional does and what they may be able to help with before making a decision. If somebody hasn't heard of any of these people before, then they shouldn't be booking a session with them. This seems to be promoting what I feel is an unhealthy sense of celebrity. I think many people that will use this service seeking a mentor would be far better off researching their local magic community, going to their magic club, and getting to know people for real. Joe
Joe Williamson
Chair of the University of York Magic Society Free Memorized Stack Trainer: http://huruey.webs.com |
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mayniac Special user 616 Posts |
$100 for one hour of training (or $150 if you're Mr. Ammar...)? Really? Geez, just go to a magic convention and you'll be able to have hours upon hours of conversations with some really great guys, if you seek them out. Plus you can go onto the Magic Session and check out FREE lectures and chat sessions with some great magicians.
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Blindside785 Inner circle Olympia, WA 4541 Posts |
It could be beneficial for those who cannot afford to go out to a lecture and pay for hotel and travel.
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MaxfieldsMagic Inner circle Instead of practicing, I made 3009 Posts |
This could be really helpful if you already studied the magician's style/approach and had some specific questions. For instance, if you'd spent hours practicing Greg Wilson's Phoenix Aces and were running into specific technical issues, spending twenty minutes or so on that alone with him could definitely help. And with someone like Wilson, his published repertoire is so deep that you'd have no problem planning a productive hour long session, after you'd first put in the work to "know what you don't know," to paraphrase Rummy. Unless you're a comely young maiden, you're probably never going to get an hour of one of these guys' undivided attention at a magic convention or lecture.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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Rabid Elite user 495 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-11 19:28, huruey wrote: As the Chair of a Magic Society, I've got to say that your view on this is terrifying. "Who will you choose?" Seems like a sensible question rather than hype, being as it is that there is a huge list of Magicians and styles to 'choose' from. Also, sorry...but what the hell does knowing the magician have to do with anything. Don't be so ridiculously elitist. So, you imply that if a person hasn't heard of Michael Ammar, then they have no right paying for his time to talk to him and discover his take on magic? Seriously? Aha...and then: "This seems to be promoting what I feel is an unhealthy sense of celebrity." That one was better than the last. These 'are' celebrities, are they not? Amongst this community of the magically inclined all of these people are as close to celebrity as one can get. Closer in some cases as you can often converse with them in any number of ways. But again, if you're implying that someone who doesn't already know of them will see them as a celebrity because of 'all the hype' (y'know the sort of thing, the insane over the top phrases such as "Who will you choose'), then so what? What if they do? God forbid anyone were to find out about great magicians and their magic other than the people that 'already know'. That would be awful, wouldn't it? Really sorry to be so harsh Mr Williamson, but your post just comes across as purely ignorant. And that surely can't be the case from the Chair of a Magic Society. Kind Regards Steph |
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KyleMacNeill Inner circle 2757 Posts |
I think, Steph, with kind regards...
You may've got the wrong end of the stick, of Mr Williamson's Post... Best wishes and sorry if I am wrong, Kyle MacNeill |
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deputy Inner circle USA 1041 Posts |
I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I think lessons from some of these artists would be great and helpful. On the other hand, will this change the face of mentoring in the future. Will the free lessons and sessioning go away now that there is a market price and a buck to be earned.
I never had a mentor in magic and had to teach myself, but would have jumped at an opportunity to learn from one of these guys. but the price might be to much for those who need it. Perhaps 2 lessons for the price of there one. But lets hope this does not hinder Magicians helping Magicians and allowing our art to grow. just my 2 cents Ryan |
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Peter Loughran V.I.P. Ontario, Canada 2683 Posts |
Personally I think the idea is brilliant. This will fit the the void for many magicians(and for guys who don't go to conventions like Blindside mentioned). Others will not see value in it and that's expected, but many others will, and that's who this is marketed to.
I also think the prices are very reasonable! You also have to remember that I'm sure Ellusionist will get a percentage, and then the artist will get the other percentage. So knowing that the performer probably isn't getting that full advertised amount, I think the prices are very fair. Think about it. These guys make a living performing or creating magic, and for a small fee, you can sit down with them in a private session over the internet. These guys must take time out of their regular scheduel of making money with their magic to do this, so its only fair they are compensated, otherwise its obvious their time would be better spent doing other things with magic. Are the prices worth it?, well that will change from individual to individual, and what they are looking to get out of the session from an individual stand point. I just hope the next time Im taking on the phone to Dan Sperry, or Sean Feilds, or Richard Sanders etc, that they don't send me a bill, lol. But in all seriousness, I think this is a great idea! Just my 2 cents. P.
Brand New: - SNAKE BITE ILLUSION
www.masterofillusions.ca Follow me on Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/peter.loughran.9 Check out my new movie: www.plasterrockmovie.com www.globaluniversal.com Also visit: www.l2fireworks.com |
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Rabid Elite user 495 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 11:57, KyleMacNeill wrote: Hi kyle. I think the last sentence in Joe's post is a good and valid argument. I do not, however, think the other sentences in the post are. S'all there in white on green. I do fully understand that my post could be regarded as a touch on the aggressive side - and if Joe takes particular offence to that then I apologise - however the facts remain unchanged. The remarks in the majority of the post come across as slightly ignorant of, what is at heart, simply a pretty good and worthwhile idea for letting mere mortals touch the hitherto hidden celebrity of these world class magicians...or something equally as pretentious. Will I be paying for any of their time? Nope. Speaking to people over a web-cam is not really my thing...unless their in their underwear of course. Do I think it's a *** fine idea? Yep. There is always so much talk of mentors and how good they can be for aspiring magicians, but hard to find. This surely is a step to rectifying that...somewhat. And really, who gives a toss how much it all costs? One can either afford something, or not. Just because certain people can't means nothing. I can't afford a Bentley Continental...doesn't make me moan about it. Okay...actually, I might have moaned about it a few times over the years. Steph |
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huruey Loyal user York, UK 205 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-02-12 11:33, Rabid wrote: Hi Steph. I seem to have given you the wrong impression with a couple of my comments, for which I apologise. One thing we may have to agree to disagree on, which I hope you will allow without having nightmares about my position as chair of a society, is the use of the phrase "Who will you choose?". To me, it seems it should be obvious that one must decide on whom they are to book a session with before booking that session. It is a sensible question that anybody considering booking a session will undoubtedly ask themselves without being prompted. Stated explicitly as it is, however, it reduces the concept of having a mentor to a very one-sided and shop-bought process. The phrase first assumes that the reader WILL book a session, and secondly it places the customer squarely in control, with little or no consideration for the mentors preference or advice concerning their tutoring. This may not be such a bad thing, but to me it makes it feel very commercial. I don't especially like the idea that a mentor can be shop-bought by scanning the shelves and reading the blurbs, however, this is a personal thing, and if it makes you feel any better, I certainly wouldn't force this opinion on any of the members of my society. I hope you can appreciate that. Next, something which I clearly didn't communicate well previously, are my comments regarding "celebrity" and whether or not somebody should book a session with a certain mentor. I certainly did not mean this in an elitist way. I meant my comment purely out of consideration for what the student would have to gain from such sessions. It wasn't a question of whether or not they have the right to train with a certain mentor. I simply meant that it would be sensible to use this service having a mentor in mind ALREADY, rather than deciding to use the service and only THEN going through the list, working out who people are, and finally deciding on somebody. Maybe I am wrong, but this is one attitude I felt the page promoted, and this brings me back to my comment about celebrity. Maybe I should have instead said it promotes a sense of "fame for fame's sake" to those who may not have been in magic long enough to get a good idea of why some of these people are so highly regarded in their fields. I personally feel that the credentials of some of these people pale in comparison to others on the listwho genuinely have hoards of knowledge and experience to offer their students. In one or two cases, it seems that they are qualified purely by the fact that they have released a few effects, rather than having any exceptional performing or mentoring experience. Maybe they could do a good job of teaching one of their effects, but is learning a trick or two worth over $100 an hour? A mentor could be so much more than this. I know of some very little known professional mentors out there (who mentor both online and in person) with incredible praise from their students. It might have been nice to see such people promoted. "Fame" should definitely not be a key factor in qualifying people to mentor, and there is not a perfect correlation between qualification and fame. I guess I have some concern for some beginners for whom the "fame" of the mentors plays a key part in their decision to use the service, rather than genuinely understanding the mentor's credentials. To many people it will be the excitement of talking to people they regard as celebrities that makes them pay out. Ellusionist generally seems to push the importance "celebirty" in the magic world, as is evident in quotes such as "INVENT MAGIC : GET FAMOUS" (http://www.ellusionist.com/invent). Of course this will not always be the case, and of course this service will be a great help to many people. To me, though, it still seems to like it could devalue the idea of a mentor; something which can be quite special. I do not want to push this opinion on anyone. It is simply how I feel, and as chair of a magic society or otherwise, I am entitled to my own opinions, regardless of how ridiculous you think they are. I must admit that I am slightly upset that you might find the fact that I run a society "terrifying", as if to suggest I could somehow be greatly damaging magic or misguiding members somehow. I should have you know that I founded the society out of my love and respect for magic. I do all I can to promote a good public image of magic and create a positive experience for our members. If you seriously have a genuine concern, feel free to submit an essay to the committee for our newsletter (to magic(at)yusu.org). We'd like to encourage diversity of opinion. All the best, Joe
Joe Williamson
Chair of the University of York Magic Society Free Memorized Stack Trainer: http://huruey.webs.com |
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truthteller Inner circle 2584 Posts |
Good points, Joe. And your founding a society can in no way be worse than someone starting a company by piggybacking on a national tv magic special by selling DVDs filled with magic secrets not of their own creation.
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Rabid Elite user 495 Posts |
Hi Joe
My sincerest apologies for making you write all that, twas not my intention. And I do see where you're coming from in a lot of what you say, but as is the case with online forums, I read something into something that you wrote and you have reacted to that and now it befalls me to react back. Ha...silly I know. We could go on forever on whether or not Ellusionist and this InSession thing is a good or bad idea, so I'm happy to drop it and let us both get on with something more constructive...like the roast pork I'm about to tuck into (heck..I can smell the crackling down in the kitchen already) if you are too. If not, I'm also happy to keep coming back here daily and we can thrash it out...makes no difference to me one way or t'other. However, one thing that should be cleared up is the following: I did not say (it's up there above, for the whole world to see) that I find the fact that you run a Magic Society terrifying. I said (and again, its up there clear as day) that I found your view on the subject terrifying. Terrifying, obviously, should be taken as a sarcastic comment, not as a factual statement as I am obviously not terrified by the fact that you have an opinion...ha. Are you entitled to your own opinion? of course, never said that you weren't. I just found the post to be pointlessly bashing a (my opinion) pretty good idea for no valid reason. Again, my opinion. You do not share it, Mr Henderson does not share it and I'm not particularly bothered whether anyone shares it. I was merely stating it. True enough, in a fairly aggressive manner but I already apologised for that so I'm not going to do it again. One other thing Joe: Your point about the picking and choosing of the 'mentors' in the third paragraph of your post...I do see what you mean but surely there's an element here of treating people with a bit of common sense? One can't hold everyone's hand through life and I'd assume that the majority of people (whatever age) would not just look at that page and go "OH WOWZA...Daniel Garcia...where's my credit card?" And if a few do...so what? Screw em'. Everyone has to take responsibility for their own actions, true? It does make one think though, I'll give you that, But overall I still think the idea is a sound one and will be of great help to the majority. Lots of love Steph |
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huruey Loyal user York, UK 205 Posts |
Steph,
As you say, it's up there for the whole world to see, although I'm not sure most people will completely disregard the first clause and its resulting implications in your initial reply. Were I too say "As an aeroplane pilot, his inability to fly planes is terrifying", I'm sure you'd be able to follow the implicative trail and realise that it is not simply his inability to fly planes that is scary, after all, this is commonplace, but the fact that he is actually flying planes given this inability. Similarly, were I to say to you "As a forum moderator and role-model for many young and beginning magicians, your readiness to react personally and aggressively to opposing opinions is scary", then you might easily take offence by this, as it would be questioning a position you should clearly care about. I should make it clear that this is not my opinion of you, and from what I recall, you always seemed very helpful and friendly at the Ellusionist forums. I only mean to illustrate how comments such as yours can be interpreted. As you are likely aware that online forums can present a hazard when it comes to communicating and interpreting opinions and arguments sensitively. Sarcasm is a particularly risky tool in sensitive or personal situations as it is difficult to communicate in words alone. I acknowledge that I did not express my opinions clearly in my initial post, for which I am sorry and I hope my second post clarified things. On this same note, I am struggling to interpret you apology for your aggression. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but you seemed to follow it up immediately with a sentence conflicting with your redress by saying you hadn't found anyone who disagreed with you. I would hope you didn't intend this as a backhanded apology. The double negative adds confusion to the matter, so it might not have even been intentional, and I won't assume either way. It's a good example of how tricky it can be to communicate our intent in an environment like this. It is worth noting that I was never arguing to conclude that either Ellusionist or the InSession service are downright bad. My very first statement was that I had mixed feelings. I do see some potential value in the idea. If for some people it only excites them about magic, then it can be beneficial. Similarly, though I have yet to explicitly state this, my feelings towards Ellusionist are also mixed. While I do not agree with certain practices, I can appreciate that they can excite and inspire a particular market in the interest of magic. In the case of this session scheme, though, the way in which Ellusionist have handled it neither surprises or excites me. Maybe another company could have handled it better, who knows. Joe
Joe Williamson
Chair of the University of York Magic Society Free Memorized Stack Trainer: http://huruey.webs.com |
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