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balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-03-02 16:29, Woland wrote:

So he bought things made in Switzerland and America. That's supposed to be outrageous?

No, not at all. And no one made any such claim about it being outrageous.

It was just something I came across that coincidentally fit into the whole 'which countries are doing business with Gaddifi' thing.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
gdw
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American intervention, why not, it worked so well with somalia.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
Woland
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The fact that Qadhdhafi owned something manufactured in the United States doesn't necessarily prove he bought it from an American company.

W.
balducci
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On 2011-03-02 18:14, Woland wrote:

The fact that Qadhdhafi owned something manufactured in the United States doesn't necessarily prove he bought it from an American company.

Well, sure. But given how many U.S. companies were / are openly operating and / or lobbying to do business in Libya, there is no reason to imagine that he did not.

Woland, I'm honestly not trying to start an argument. But I still wonder about your earlier comment about companies in countries not wanting to do business with Gaddafi. Which countries did you have in mind?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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I'm confused by the issues here. I realize lefties love it when people in small countries kill each other off, they can blame the govt of the US. Lets face it, the left has been slaughtering the peasants in countries for decades, it is their thing, makes them feel good. That explains why they don't want the US to stop the killing, better the killing than looking like the US cares about lives eh?

As for US companies they have been trying to get contracts in Libya ever since the poor Lockerbee bomber was sent home to gasp out his last few breaths in his homeland, say, what side do you think he is on? Oh well. Back to companies, they returned after the ban was lifted but after companies from other countries that are less worried about things like oppression were already in there. They can do so legally, they being US companies, and I'm not sure how effective it has been. I know, I know, of all the companies in the world the US ones are the ones that pollute and build upon the ground up bodies of the worker, yeah yeah, but they were allowed in. Regan started the ban, Bush the Younger lifted it....there, everyone happy?

Oh, there is one consideration you need to remember. Antiboycott language in contracts. Biiiig issue in the Middle East and North Africa. If you have a contract that states that you cannot do business in Israel while doing business with Allah Oil in country X then you cannot accept that contract. Antiboycott...remember it. I'm not sure if Libya has that language in it but Saudi Arabia was notorious for slipping in into banking documents and other forms and they, by law, had to be rejected. Good times!
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-03-02 19:14, MagicSanta wrote:
I'm confused by the issues here. I realize lefties love it when people in small countries kill each other off, they can blame the govt of the US. Lets face it, the left has been slaughtering the peasants in countries for decades, it is their thing, makes them feel good. That explains why they don't want the US to stop the killing, better the killing than looking like the US cares about lives eh?



I want names. Who are these "lefties that love it when people in small countries kill each other off." Out with it!

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
MagicSanta
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You, Landster, Balducci when it doesn't interfere with his closet capitalist true self, the usual suspects. I admit I don't care if they kill each other off.
critter
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I'll bet Libya has awesome food. There's this Gyro stand at my school that has this Middle Eastern Muslim guy working it who plays the Muslim chant music all the time. Clashes strangely with the music from the espresso stand across the aile from it. The Muslim dude's stand always smells good. Might try it sometime if I ever have cash on me.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
~Will Rogers
MagicSanta
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Forget gyro, you want Shawarma....oh yeah baby! If you are ever in San Jose there is a falafal joint that has been there at least 40 years on Stevens Creek Blvd right before you get to highway 680 on the downtown side.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-03-02 19:51, MagicSanta wrote:
You, Landster, Balducci when it doesn't interfere with his closet capitalist true self, the usual suspects. I admit I don't care if they kill each other off.

John, Balducci, and I, or the peasants? Smile
MagicSanta
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The peasants, I love you guys. If I go to NYC I want to do two things, hang out with Landmark and irritate Derick Vernon.
balducci
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Santa is correct, Shawarma is pretty tasty.

Quote:
On 2011-03-02 21:41, MagicSanta wrote:
If I go to NYC I want to ... irritate Derick Vernon.

Lol. Whatever did he do to you? You ever catch his posts at Genii?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-03-02 19:51, MagicSanta wrote:
You, Landster, Balducci when it doesn't interfere with his closet capitalist true self, the usual suspects. I admit I don't care if they kill each other off.


Aww you're so cute, Santa. I'm trying to figure out which death and destruction I've ever supported. Give me time, I'm sure it'll hit me eventually.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Woland
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Dear Magnus,

That you were unaware of how the international elite lionized Qadhdhafi and his regime does not make it any less true. Just one example, the illustrious career of the tyrant's ......onomics:

[quote]The Boston-based Monitor Group is an influential organisation which advises governments as well as major corporations on international issues.

Yet it carried out an intriguing task for the student Gaddafi. When Saif arrived at the LSE in September 2002 to do his doctorate (The Role of Civil Society in the Democratisation of Global Governance Institutions: From ‘Soft Power’ to Collective Decision-Making), he needed interviews with powerful people on which to base his thesis.

No fewer than 40 such interviews were carried out on his behalf by the Monitor Group. His resulting thesis, and the PhD which the LSE awarded him, was based on these interviews, none of which he did himself.

In addition, a row has erupted over Gaddafi Jnr’s apparent plagiarism of whole sections of other people’s work for his thesis. This brings another Blair crony into the unsavoury episode, economist Lord Desai, the academic who interviewed him about the thesis and who insists he found everything satisfactory.

Six years earlier, when Saif had arrived at the LSE he was welcomed by its then director Anthony (now Lord) Giddens — Blair’s favourite New Labour philosophical guru. As well as dreaming up the ‘Third Way’, he also advocated, in a Reith lecture, ‘casual coupling’ sex without responsibility on the grounds that in a high-divorce society, there is ‘an implicit understanding that family relationships are impermanent’.

In 2007, a year before Saif completed his heroic PhD, Giddens visited Gaddafi Senior to talk to him about democracy. Afterwards he wrote an article for The Guardian, confidently predicting that Gaddafi would lead the way to political reform. ‘As one-party states go, Libya is not especially repressive. Gaddafi seems genuinely popular,’ he wrote. This despite the thousands known to have been killed by Gaddafi’s henchmen.

Saif hadn’t yet been cavorting with Peter Mandelson or Nat Rothschild on billionaire Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska’s yacht at that time — all this was to follow. But it was obvious to everyone that the oil-rich dictator’s son was the heir apparent.

Some see the LSE’s Professor David Held as among the biggest fools, if you like, in this unsavoury saga. For four years, as Saif did his thesis, the international politics specialist was his adviser. He was also put on the board of the LSE’s North African research programme, a charity set up and funded by Saif Gaddafi. Professor Held introduced Saif to the audience when the dictator’s son — astonishingly, you may think — delivered the Ralph Miliband Memorial lecture, an annual occasion dedicated to Labour leader Ed Miliband’s Communist father who taught at the LSE and remains one of its most revered figures.

‘I’ve come to know Saif as someone who looks to democracy, civil society and deep liberal values as the core of his inspiration,’ boomed Professor Held. ‘I look forward to how he will apply these.’ Hmm...

The ‘wise’ professor has since admitted he seems to have got Saif wrong. At the LSE, there seems to have been hardly anyone — other than Fred Halliday — who didn’t.

Just the other week, Professor Held and LSE colleagues Dr Alia Brahimi and Dr Kristian Coates Ulrichsen jointly published an article about the revolutions in Egypt and Tunisia, which completely failed to see an uprising occurring in Libya.

They talked of ‘the failures of corrupt and repressive autocratic regimes’, but found that Libya was less likely to undergo any revolution. ‘In Libya,’ they wrote, ‘more pronounced tribalism has drawn larger circles of people into the regime’s orbit and given them a stake in society.’

Dr Brahimi, 30, who is of Algerian-American background and was educated at Stowe and Oxford, met Saif on a number of occasions and believed she had got to know and understand him.

Perhaps not surprisingly, it was the glamorous Dr Brahimi whom the university authorities chose to fly to Crete for a meeting with Saif in order to obtain his ‘objectives and expectations’ on how his £1.5million donation should be spent. They also met in London, most recently just before Christmas.

‘I’ve got nothing to apologise for,’ she said last night. ‘Saif told me he was keen that democratic reform should happen soon in Libya.

‘He was saying: “Let’s have civil society workshops all through Ramadan.” He couldn’t have been more in favour of liberal reforms.’

She admits now that she and her colleagues were ‘fooled’.[/url]

Saif-al-Islam delivered the Miliband Lecture!

Wake up, Magnus, and smell the schawarma . . . .

Woland
MagicSanta
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Come John...you likely have a special name for it. Landmark, we had a special place for Derick to go nuts once and he got mad and left after we teased him.
Magnus Eisengrim
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LOL Woland. That diatribe is a long way from your earlier statement that "up until a few weeks ago, the Libyan regime was the darling of the international community." As near as I can tell, you've excerpted an article that criticizes the LSE's involvement in Saif Gaddafi's (the dictator's son) PhD thesis, claiming that a Boston-based group did much of the data gathering and that the thesis was partially plagiarized.

How is this evidence that "up until a few weeks ago, the Libyan regime was the darling of the international community"?

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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I think China will move puppet government into Libya like they have done in the US and the UK.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
MagicSanta
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I'm sure Guadafi is loved by many different countries....they want his oil after all and if there was any love lost for the US by Libya that is enough to think they are wonderful. Yemen already tried the ol' " it is the fault of the US and the evil Jews! " routine but it hasn't worked yet, I bet Guadafi tries it next. I noticed the protesters, to insult Guadafi, put up signs saying "Guadafi the Jew!".
Woland
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Well, Magnus, it's just one piece of evidence. One example.

Another example is the fact that Libya was made the Chair country of the UN Human Rights Commission in 2003.

From Chairman of the UNHRC to pariah -- that's a swift change.

Woland
Magnus Eisengrim
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I recommend you read how they came to chair that committee, Woland. The Libyan candidate was the only nominee. To force the issue, the USA called for a vote in protest. 33 countries voted for the only candidate running, 3 voted against and 17 abstained as a protest. Immediately following the vote, criticism was fast and forceful from pretty much every Western nation and every NGO you could imagine.

Following the vote, a BBC correspondent wrote "this was widely seen as part of the unofficial quid pro quo Libya had negotiated in return for financing the newly-created African Union, the successor to the Organisation of African Unity, which was formed last year.

Defending Libya was Seif Gaddafi: "We have a better human rights record than our neighbours. Sure, we are not Switzerland or Denmark; we are part of the Third World and part of the Middle East. But we are better than our neighbours".

I don't see how any of this adds up to Libya being "the darling of the international community" by any stretch of the imagination.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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