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acesover
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I am a little confused. Are you bringing IEDs into the pirate equation?

I hope all is well with your cousin.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 16:47, acesover wrote:
I am a little confused. Are you bringing IEDs into the pirate equation?

I hope all is well with your cousin.
No, just mentioning it to pre-emptively defuse arguments concerning assymetrical warfare, as well as bring up an example of a violation of a treaty in modern warfare. If the IEDs were being used by a nation's military, the officers and soldiers could be subject to war crimes prosecution. (Regardless of which country "won" the conflict.) I believe the charges can be brought by any member nation, not just ones involved in the conflict.

Thanks, my cousin's fine; he completed his tour and went back to school to get a degree in psychology.
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critter
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I know people (very close friends) who taught interrogation techniques. The way they taught it is that the Geneva Convention does not cover everyone. Terrorists, for example, are not considered members of any recognized government sanctioned military entity. So it's okay to torture them.
So that's how it has been taught in the military.
Not gonna' say whether it's right or wrong, but it's tradition.
"The fool is one who doesn't know what you have just found out."
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MagicSanta
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Here's an idea...we take the Phalanx weapons that were removed from ships and put them on bouys. We watch for the pirates if when they are in range hit the button and zzzzzzzzzzip it is resolved!
tommy
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Gold reached a new all-time high today and Silver is on a 31 high anyway and whosoevers fault it is I would just like to say thank you to him.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
MagicSanta
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You are welcome....
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 15:00, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Yeah, acesover, that quaint, old Geneva Convention.

I do think we should take more aggressive action on the issue of the Somali pirates; they are terrorists, and we should never negotiate with terrorists. However, that stance doesn't necessarily carry over to my opinion on the rest of our foreign affairs.

I'm almost certain you'll call me a foolish liberal or worse for this, but there's a difference between the Good Guys and the Bad Guys- namely that the Good Guys don't compromise their values, even when the Bad Guys don't play fair. America was founded on certain principles, and whenever we violate them, we lessen ourselves. If we re-examined our foreign policy and re-aligned it to those principles, I think quite a few of our foreign relations problems would resolve themselves quietly and peacefully.


What principals are you talking about here and how do we need to "re-allign" them exactly?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 19:18, critter wrote:
I know people (very close friends) who taught interrogation techniques. The way they taught it is that the Geneva Convention does not cover everyone. Terrorists, for example, are not considered members of any recognized government sanctioned military entity. So it's okay to torture them.
So that's how it has been taught in the military.
Not gonna' say whether it's right or wrong, but it's tradition.

And who are we to argue with Tradition!
Tradition! Tradition!
Cue the Fiddler and Zero Mostel and Herschel Bernardi, get those Guantanamo guards to start shaking their tucheses and singing with gusto!
The Torture Tradition! L'Chaim!
MagicSanta
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Tokhes! I looked at that and wondered for a moment.... make sure to add the hught sound..
landmark
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That guttural sound is usually transliterated as ch in English, hence L'Chaim.

For critter's army buddies: the UN Convention Against Torture, signed by Ronald Reagan and approved by Congress, and thus the law of the land, states:

Article 2 of the convention prohibits torture, and requires parties "to take effective measures to prevent it in any territory under its jurisdiction. This prohibition is absolute and non-derogable. "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever" may be invoked to justify torture, including war, threat of war, internal political instability, public emergency, terrorist acts, violent crime, or any form of armed conflict. Torture cannot be justified as a means to protect public safety or prevent emergencies. Neither can it be justified by orders from superior officers or public officials." The prohibition on torture applies to all territories under a party's effective jurisdiction, and protects all people under its effective control, regardless of citizenship or how that control is exercised.

and Article 10 states: "Each State Party shall ensure that education and information regarding the prohibition against torture are fully included in the training of law enforcement personnel, civil or military, medical personnel, public officials and other persons who may be involved in the custody, interrogation or treatment of any individual subjected to any form of arrest, detention or imprisonment."


http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 14:23, acesover wrote:

As I said in another thread I am sure we know where all of these pirate ships are with todays technology and should capture all ships and "try" and limit hostage casualties the key word being "try". There is not one pirate ship capable of withstanding an attack.


Quote:
On 2011-03-01 15:53, acesover wrote:

Sometimes it is not so much the bad guys just not playing fair it is us having to play by their rules. They do not have missles that can sink a ship but we do. Can we use them? We can blow them out of the water with the weapons and firepower we have but dare we? No to both questions we have to use the same sort of weapons that they have and put our men at risk to make it a fair fight.

Is it fair when 30 or 40 armed pirates capture 4 American seniors citizens and then kill them. Did the pirates send in their senior citizen pirates unarmed? I don't think so.

They just captured this last ship I believe it was yesterday I think there were 3 or 4 adults and 3 children all unarmed. Did the pirates send over 3 or 4 unarmed pirates and 3 children in order to capture them? I don't think so. I guess it is only fair wheh it works in their favor.


I wonder how many U.S. ships this would take? Last weekend, they found one pirate ship 2,500 miles away from Somalia, near Madagascar. So it is a HUGE territory that would have to be protected, to remove the threat of pirates.

I suppose the, say, billion dollar cost of doing the above (in order to protect seniors manning, and children on, pleasure boats) would be far more than what is currently being paid in ransom. Not that any government would ever allow financial cost to enter into this. Of course not.

BTW, what about the (approximately) 700 hostages currently held by the pirates on land, probably in a hundred different locations? I wonder how they would fare if the pirate ships were taken out.

I don't have the answers to these questions. But I think I would have the common sense not to float a yacht anywhere near pirate infested waters.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/children-amo......d5b.html

"Governments have pleaded with shipowners and seafaring holidaymakers to stick to designated shipping lanes when passing through the Arabian Sea. The US Navy sometimes provides escorts for convoys and the ships travel in numbers for safety."
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
EsnRedshirt
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Balducci, fair enough, it wasn't smart to go there. But it's a major shipping lane. Don't shift blame to the victims. And these pirates have investors- they've turned it into a business model. How is that acceptible? (Maybe if the pirates called themselves bankers instead?) They absolutely expect to get away with kidnapping for ransom- and it's happened frequently enough that they've got investors- it's a lucrative business.

It'd be nice if we could say, "Surrender- if you release the hostages unharmed, we'll only arrest you." But we all know that would turn out poorly for everyone involved.
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tommy
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Obviously the bankers are using the price of food as a weapon of war to attack countries all over the world. Food riots in 2008, revolutions in 2011 – Since nothing can stop the bankers the only question that remains is what, where, who is next? Well just like a poker comp it looks like the bankers are picking off the weak stacks first. There are 80 countries around the world that fit the bill having a big mob on low incomes with food they can hardly afford already. The bankers simply raise the food price and they cause the mob to revolts all over the world. In step the bankers and buy when there is blood in the streets. From Haiti to Bangladesh, to Mexico, Uzbekistan and Eritrea to Egypt, Yemen, Morocco, Mauritania, Senegal and Zimbabwe, and on and on its happening everywhere you look. From a business point of view this is a great opportunity! If you can't beat them join them as they say; Buy when there is blood in the streets. Every cloud has a silver lining. Think of all the bargains you can pick up in these places. Eeasy peasy Japanesey! Who cares who's fault it is? Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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acesover
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Balducci,

To quote you: I wonder how many U.S. ships this would take? Last weekend, they found one pirate ship 2,500 miles away from Somalia, near Madagascar. So it is a HUGE territory that would have to be protected, to remove the threat of pirates. end quote

What did they do with the ship they found? I am curious. Also who is they? Was it the US Navy? Again just curious. Was this pirate ship on a pleasure cruise or what?

Just my opinion of course yours seems different. But I do not think the pirates have the right to tell anyone what part of the sea to sail on. Seems you feel differently.
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MagicSanta
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It is a huge area. How many ships is an interesting question, the answer is one well armed one the whole issue is how to keep the weeping to a minimum in certain countries who will claim every boat taken out is a fishing vessel in route to return a baby hippo to its mother. A small crowded boat isn't going to operate in heavy seas, not safe and the pirates can't be that nuts. Let's just say that when I was off Beirut we knew what was in the water for a good bit of space around us. We couldn't do anything to them but we knew they were there, we also knew everything in the air no matter how close to the surface they flew (Syria...you punks). With satellites they can track everything in the area, except you don't know intention and all that good stuff. If you did get a target you push a lil' button and a short while later the target is gone. Like a shrimp boat off the Florida coast....just...gone. Doesn't matter though, the pirates will continue and companies will keep paying them off and when they happen to get killed there will be gnashing of teeth about how horrible the US is, unless it is a vessel from another country like India or China, then they will be only trying to protect their trade.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-03-03 00:10, acesover wrote:

To quote you: I wonder how many U.S. ships this would take? Last weekend, they found one pirate ship 2,500 miles away from Somalia, near Madagascar. So it is a HUGE territory that would have to be protected, to remove the threat of pirates. end quote

What did they do with the ship they found? I am curious. Also who is they? Was it the US Navy? Again just curious. Was this pirate ship on a pleasure cruise or what?

Well, I'm sure you can open any decent newspaper and find the details. Briefly, two of the pirates took a small boat into shore to ask for help and drop off an ill female passenger. Following that, Madagascar (Madagascan?) authorities did a search and found the 'mother' pirate ship after a couple of days of searching (and keep in mind that it may not have even been hiding, considering the circumstances ... it still took 2 days of searching, and presumably the U.S. Navy gave them satellite assistance or whatever). Now (as of last weekend anyway) they don't know what to do with it, because this is an unprecedented case ... "While the prosecutor rifles through national and international maritime agreements to figure out whether the unknown foreigners can be charged with piracy laws last used in the 19th century, justice ministers from Comoros and Madagascar are also questioning who should try them, where they should be tried, and for what."

So, what about my question? Any thoughts about how many U.S. ships it would take to patrol and secure this more or less 2,500 square mile area?

Quote:
On 2011-03-03 00:10, acesover wrote:

Just my opinion of course yours seems different. But I do not think the pirates have the right to tell anyone what part of the sea to sail on. Seems you feel differently.

Where do you get that from? Geez Louis. I hope you are kidding, because otherwise you are being ridiculous and silly. Of course the pirates do not have the authority (which I think is a more accurate word to use than 'right') to tell anyone what part of the sea to sail on.

Neither does anyone have the authority to tell me not to jump off of a cliff or commit any other moronic act. If I did something stupid like that, I really have to take some share of the blame (at least, assuming I was not mentally incapacitated I guess). I think that would apply to sailing a pleasure craft in well known dangerous pirate infested waters. Hey, that's just me. Seems you feel differently.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
MagicSanta
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If they can't really pin anything specific on the pirates in Madagascar (hey, Madagascar, stop with the chopping down the forrest and letting all that silt run into the ocean, I know the lefties don't mind but we real conservation types do care) they just let 'em go. They can't just say "hey, we are going to charge you with all the crimes others may have commited", it isn't as if they are a motorcycle club (ha! Take that San Diego County!).
MagicSanta
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Say....what do the pirates have to do with Obama leading rebels in Egypt?
EsnRedshirt
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Well, it's his fault, isn't it?

I was just on another board where someone was praising the patriotic Somalian privateers who were only defending their coastline from the oppressive foreigners, levying fines so they can clean up their waters and rebuild their fishing industry. Seriously.

Now, I know that private companies have abused the situation, dumping toxic waste into Somalian waters and devastating the already impoverished country, and our government's intervention in the last few decades certainly didn't help matters there, but get real- these are pirates, not the general population of Somalia. And the pirates themselves are being exploited by their investors- organized crime. They've turned kidnapping into a lucrative business model. I may feel for the plight of the Somalis, but that doesn't justify the piracy. People are nuts.
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On 2011-03-03 00:55, MagicSanta wrote:
Say....what do the pirates have to do with Obama leading rebels in Egypt?


Didn't you know that he is an African-born Muslim pirate?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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