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MagicSanta
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Other sources say zero gas from libya....I told you oil companies are evil scumbags. Why does Europe need oil? They have donkeys don't they?
balducci
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On 2011-03-01 01:00, MagicSanta wrote:
Other sources say zero gas from libya....

Like what sources?

I would tend to trust the DOE / EIA, as it seems to me that they would be the ones with accurate data.

Of course, you might have heard that it was zero gas (either gasoline or natural gas) and that might even be correct ... but we were talking oil.
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 00:44, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-02-28 23:53, acesover wrote:

You are absoutely right I am not interested in what gas prices are in other countries. I am sure I can google it if I desire which I don't.

That's not what I was talking about but never mind, it don't matter.



I know what you were talking about. I just did not go for the bait.
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GlenD
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With this current bunch, the less we attempt to do internationally the better. Let's not forget who our current Secretary of State is. Everybody run for cover, they're firing at us!!!
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
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Better duck and cover than nuke 'em all.
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 11:22, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Better duck and cover than nuke 'em all.


Something like a confrontation with a bad guy with a knife and you have a gun. It is supposed to go like this. Put down that knife or I will shoot. However to my way of thinking I believe this to be the better solution. Bang, put down that knife.
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EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 12:56, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-01 11:22, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Better duck and cover than nuke 'em all.


Something like a confrontation with a bad guy with a knife and you have a gun. It is supposed to go like this. Put down that knife or I will shoot. However to my way of thinking I believe this to be the better solution. Bang, put down that knife.
Versus a nuke? A more apt analogy is-
BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
"I wouldn't have machine-gunned everyone in the bar if he'd put that knife down."
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At this point in time I feel that the US is the only true Super Power in the world today. However there are a few challangers coming into the game. Once there you will see that their ideals differ greatly than ours and they do not necessairly play by the same rules we do. That is where the real trouble lies. If other countries seem threatened who have become Super Powers they will deal with the threat until it is no longer a threat. We however do not do this.

Time and time again our hands are tied. If the same conditions existed today I wonder if we would drop the bomb on Japan.

Look at these pirates. While off topic it is cognizant to the point I am making. They killed 4 Americans and continue to roam the sea. Oh yea we captured them and I believe we are going to have a trial. You haave to be kidding. They just captured another ship with I believe 3 children on this one.

Is it our duty to patrol and police the seas? You may not like the answer, but the answer is yes. With awesome power comes awesome responsibility and we are shirking it. You cannot let these pirates run however they wish. Like said in the other thread. Make the punishment to horrible so the crime is unattractive to the criminal (take no prisoners).

As I said in another thread I am sure we know where all of these pirate ships are with todays technology and should capture all ships and "try" and limit hostage casualties the key word being "try". There is not one pirate ship capable of withstanding an attack.

I know this post went off topic but I am just disgusted with what we (The United States) have to put up with today. The most powerful nation the world has ever seen.

Sorry to rant.
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critter
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Everything we did in Egypt "may have had to" be done quietly, because we "may have been" still outsourcing much of our interrogation to the Egyptian government when the riots started.
"If" that is the case then it is above my head and I don't want to know any more about it.
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MagicSanta
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My source was the AP...dang liars.
EsnRedshirt
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Yeah, acesover, that quaint, old Geneva Convention.

I do think we should take more aggressive action on the issue of the Somali pirates; they are terrorists, and we should never negotiate with terrorists. However, that stance doesn't necessarily carry over to my opinion on the rest of our foreign affairs.

I'm almost certain you'll call me a foolish liberal or worse for this, but there's a difference between the Good Guys and the Bad Guys- namely that the Good Guys don't compromise their values, even when the Bad Guys don't play fair. America was founded on certain principles, and whenever we violate them, we lessen ourselves. If we re-examined our foreign policy and re-aligned it to those principles, I think quite a few of our foreign relations problems would resolve themselves quietly and peacefully.
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Quote:
On 2011-02-26 23:49, Jonathan Townsend wrote:

Some people seem to have taken Mavis Beacon as their leader and type all sorts of things.



That was funny! Smile
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On 2011-03-01 15:00, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Yeah, acesover, that quaint, old Geneva Convention.

I do think we should take more aggressive action on the issue of the Somali pirates; they are terrorists, and we should never negotiate with terrorists. However, that stance doesn't necessarily carry over to my opinion on the rest of our foreign affairs.

I'm almost certain you'll call me a foolish liberal or worse for this, but there's a difference between the Good Guys and the Bad Guys- namely that the Good Guys don't compromise their values, even when the Bad Guys don't play fair. America was founded on certain principles, and whenever we violate them, we lessen ourselves. If we re-examined our foreign policy and re-aligned it to those principles, I think quite a few of our foreign relations problems would resolve themselves quietly and peacefully.



I know this may sound cynical but what is the punishment of breaking the Geneva Convention? Lets say Saudi Arabia
breaks it. Does everyone stop purchasing oil from them? Who will enforce it? The U.N.?

Reminds me of a simple analogy of two fueding famlies.

The heads of the famlies get together and sign a pact that no matter how bad things are no one will ever stab anyone from the other family. We can shoot each other strangle each other whatever. But never ever use a knife on the other family. It is just to gorey.

Now one day Mike from family "A" jumps Joe from family "B" and is strangling him to death and Joe is close to death from being strangled. However he can reach his knife. How much do you think that paper is worth that the heads of the famlies signed at this point? I am just saying...
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critter
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Did Saudi Arabia sign it?
If you didn't sign it, you ain't covered...
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acesover
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EsnRedshirt,

Sometimes it is not so much the bad guys just not playing fair it is us having to play by their rules. They do not have missles that can sink a ship but we do. Can we use them? We can blow them out of the water with the weapons and firepower we have but dare we? No to both questions we have to use the same sort of weapons that they have and put our men at risk to make it a fair fight.

Is it fair when 30 or 40 armed pirates capture 4 American seniors citizens and then kill them. Did the pirates send in their senior citizen pirates unarmed? I don't think so.

They just captured this last ship I believe it was yesterday I think there were 3 or 4 adults and 3 children all unarmed. Did the pirates send over 3 or 4 unarmed pirates and 3 children in order to capture them? I don't think so. I guess it is only fair wheh it works in their favor.

If that works for you ok, but it does not work for me.
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acesover
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 15:43, critter wrote:
Did Saudi Arabia sign it?
If you didn't sign it, you ain't covered...


Yes I am almost positive they did. So did China. They are big on Human rights.
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EsnRedshirt
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Aces, I'm sure you're not interested in technicalities, such as non-signatory nations being granted the same protections afforded to member nations provided they follow the conventions, or the fact that the Geneva Convention is now considered customary international law which all nations must follow...
(Edit: critter, see above.)

However, violating the Geneva Convention can be considered committing a war crime, enabling individual prosecution of the people who committed such violations, along with superior officers who ordered them to commit those violations. People- including Americans, such as Sgt. Horace T West (see Biscari massacre)- have been found guilty of such crimes and sentenced to life imprisonment or death. There are currently some former heads-of-state and politicians who are restricted in places to which they can travel, lest they be arrested and brought to trial for such crimes.
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acesover
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Quote:
On 2011-03-01 16:05, EsnRedshirt wrote:
Aces, I'm sure you're not interested in technicalities, such as non-signatory nations being granted the same protections afforded to member nations provided they follow the conventions, or the fact that the Geneva Convention is now considered customary international law which all nations must follow...
(Edit: critter, see above.)

However, violating the Geneva Convention can be considered committing a war crime, enabling individual prosecution of the people who committed such violations, along with superior officers who ordered them to commit those violations. People- including Americans, such as Sgt. Horace T West (see Biscari massacre)- have been found guilty of such crimes and sentenced to life imprisonment or death. There are currently some former heads-of-state and politicians who are restricted in places to which they can travel, lest they be arrested and brought to trial for such crimes.


Your last sentence sums it up. If the country does not want to surrender the offender you are SOL.

Obviously you were not in armed combat where a sniper or a squad of the enemy systematicaly killed a number of your men. Shooting them mostly in the head. Then when they were out of ammunition and were sure of capture decide to surrender. It is very difficult to accept said surrender. Need I say more?
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EsnRedshirt
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Aces- I've already said how we should act towards those pirates.

However, if a country violates the Geneva Convention- also recognized as customary international law- that does not mean that we can also violate it. Anyone who did would still be subject to war crimes prosecution.

There are also specific international laws on what weapons can be used. It's silly to restrict us from using a missile to destroy a dinghy full of pirates. There are, however, weapons which are considered prohibited, due to their persistant, indescriminant, and/or injurious nature. For example- flechette rounds which explode within the body as shrapnel (especially of a material that's undetectable and difficult to remove), lasers which permanently blind targets, incendiary weapons including white phosphorous and flame throwers, and, yes- biological and chemical agents. I believe use of them may be considered a war crime, or possibly a crime against humanity.

Yes- IEDs are considered prohibited weapons. It wouldn't be feasible for an organized military to use them, anyway, due to their indescriminant nature. Their use against US troops is illegal, and terrorists using them can be procecuted (in addition to other charges they may face.) I don't believe they would be tried as war criminals, though, as they're not considered part of a nation. I think they're tried as private citizens. One of the lawyers here would have to elaborate or correct me, though.
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EsnRedshirt
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Aces, if that happened to you or a relative, then I am sorry. And you are right- snipers are subject to mistreatment upon surrender. This includes US snipers as well. I have a cousin who was a sniper, with military service in the Gulf War. He was certainly advised not to advertise that fact, for that very reason.
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