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balducci
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On 2011-03-04 18:46, MagicSanta wrote:

You don't believe very high taxes don't already exist on those things?

What do you define as "very high taxes"? That is, what taxation rate becomes "very high" in your opinion?
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
George Ledo
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On 2011-03-05 12:58, stoneunhinged wrote:
We remain skeptical regarding how a large state (or would you suggest getting rid of nation states--by magic, perhaps?) could function without any beaurocratic elements whatsoever.

Okay, let's focus in a little bit. For instance:

My employer -- the day-to-day office stuff -- is pretty much totally computerized. It needs to be. However, since I've been here, every time something new gets computerized, the work only increases. You not only have to enter stuff into the computers, but then you need to run and print reports that were never needed before, and then enter some of it manually (off the reports) back into another system which creates its own paperwork and storage. So now you need more people to do all this additional work. It's like a snowball rolling downhill.

Then, of course, you need more filing cabinets, you need to support the computers, you need more offsite storage space, and you need a system to keep track of all the paper and all the reports on the paper and all the logs on the reports and all the shredding instructions.

On top of which, the general ledger has about a gazillion different accounts, each one a number with fourteen digits. Every time I see that, I have to wonder if all those accounts are there just because "the computer" makes it possible to have them. When you talk to the people managing the money, you realize that a lot of those accounts are really feeding the same kitty, but yet the accounting people insist that you need to have all of them, and then they add more.

And this is only one small agency.

I'm not saying you don't need a system in place; all I'm questioning is whether all this is really necessary to do the work we're charged with doing.
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gdw
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Quote:
On 2011-03-05 17:18, stoneunhinged wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-05 13:48, gdw wrote:
That's like asking who designs and makes the bags that your bread comes in, and how do you pay for them.


Right.

It's a good question, in my opinion.


Ok, and, I'm sure it's one you know how to answer. How DO you pay for the packaging for your bread?
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
stoneunhinged
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Glenn, you realize I'm making fun of you, right? Crosswalks have nothing to do with bread packaging, and you know it. One is a public service provided for safety in a community, and the other is simply part of the package, so to speak. I pay for both, of course.

George, as for focusing in on beaurocratic waste in the computer age, well, there you go and there you have it.

Nothing new, really. Beaurocracy has inherent flaws. That has been long known. Take, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson%27s_Law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

And I read once a beautiful description of what computers mean to modern society, but couldn't find it. It went something like this:

Computers allow us to efficiently perform work that we otherwise would not have been expected to perform.

I sure wish I could remember the original source.

Anyway, the point is that beaurocracy is a natural, understood, and unavoidable phenomenon. Human beings have their ways. They continue to act like human beings, no matter what GDW, Austrian economists, libertarians and anarchists or other dreamers would like. The only way to truly avoid beaurocracy would be to avoid organization. But avoiding organization would mean at least two things:

1. We would have no bags for bread,
2. We would have no crosswalks.

Now, if anyone wants to get down into the nitty gritty of *how* human beings could better organize themselves (would that be something like "political philosophy"?), then I'm game to discuss it.
rowdymagi5
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Government run programs are full of money wasting abuse.

Example: I know a lady who is single and just had a child. She lives with her boyfriend. His mother has rental homes and they live in one rent free. She also pays their electric and water bill.

He works in the Coal Mines making $65,000 a year.

Her mother gave her a car and she gives her $300.00 per month for gas, insurance and extras.

Since she is technically a single mom the government gives her over $300 a month in food stamps. Also she gets assistance money to pay her utility bills (that she is not paying anyway)
Oh yea, she is on the WIC program too getting free milk and cheese.

Not to mention she draws unemployment.

She was reported two years ago. Nothing was done by the overpaid state employees.

I work my tail off to get by and they live like royalty.
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My point is that the system is broken. But anytime someone comes along wanting to fix it, the masses start crying because they feel entitled to these government handouts.
tommy
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No I don't think so. It seems to me what you are doing there is giving an example of someone who is apparently committing fraud and calling that the system which it is not. Unless you mean by “the system is broke” you mean the legal system.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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gdw
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Stone, I am well aware.

And yes, bureaucracy is unavoidable, but government institutionalizes it, and, as there is no real accountability based on whether or not they provide their services, or provide them with any quality, nor any real consequences when they don't stick to heir budget (they can just tax more, or use more debt,) the bureaucracy remains unchecked.

Such would be impossible in a system where companies had to actually earn their funds, and provide services.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-03-05 17:29, George Ledo wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-05 12:58, stoneunhinged wrote:
We remain skeptical regarding how a large state (or would you suggest getting rid of nation states--by magic, perhaps?) could function without any beaurocratic elements whatsoever.

Okay, let's focus in a little bit. For instance:

My employer -- the day-to-day office stuff -- is pretty much totally computerized. It needs to be. However, since I've been here, every time something new gets computerized, the work only increases. You not only have to enter stuff into the computers, but then you need to run and print reports that were never needed before, and then enter some of it manually (off the reports) back into another system which creates its own paperwork and storage. So now you need more people to do all this additional work. It's like a snowball rolling downhill.

Then, of course, you need more filing cabinets, you need to support the computers, you need more offsite storage space, and you need a system to keep track of all the paper and all the reports on the paper and all the logs on the reports and all the shredding instructions.

On top of which, the general ledger has about a gazillion different accounts, each one a number with fourteen digits. Every time I see that, I have to wonder if all those accounts are there just because "the computer" makes it possible to have them. When you talk to the people managing the money, you realize that a lot of those accounts are really feeding the same kitty, but yet the accounting people insist that you need to have all of them, and then they add more.

And this is only one small agency.

I'm not saying you don't need a system in place; all I'm questioning is whether all this is really necessary to do the work we're charged with doing.

Remember "the paperless office"?
landmark
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Like Microsoft.
George Ledo
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I think it would be fascinating for a sociologist (or some other academic entity) to do some research on how bureaucracies develop. Not organizations or governments, but systems that feed on themselves and become ends in themselves. Heck, bureaucracies have been around since the time of Roman Empire (or so the historians tell us), and probably before then, so there has to be a common thread in there somewhere.

One thing I have found over the years, and I find at work today, is that when an issue comes up, you can go one of two ways. You can talk and argue about the "how" and continue feeding the bureaucratic cookie monster, or, what I've learned to do, focus only on the "what" and get the bureaucrats so confused that they very often have to give in. It's a game I play, and sometimes it's the only way I can get stuff done and still keep my sense of humor.
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ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2011-03-06 08:39, rowdymagi5 wrote:
Government run programs are full of money wasting abuse.

Example: I know a lady who is single and just had a child. She lives with her boyfriend. His mother has rental homes and they live in one rent free. She also pays their electric and water bill.

He works in the Coal Mines making $65,000 a year.

Her mother gave her a car and she gives her $300.00 per month for gas, insurance and extras.

Since she is technically a single mom the government gives her over $300 a month in food stamps. Also she gets assistance money to pay her utility bills (that she is not paying anyway)
Oh yea, she is on the WIC program too getting free milk and cheese.

Not to mention she draws unemployment.

She was reported two years ago. Nothing was done by the overpaid state employees.

I work my tail off to get by and they live like royalty.


But you can't get me to believe that they're the norm.
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gdw
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May not be the "norm," or majority Ed, but they highlight the very real, very significant problem.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
landmark
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If it's not the norm why is it a very real problem? The dollar amount is small compared to corporate fraud. One look at the Pentagon budget should convince you of that.
MagicSanta
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A few thoughts here, and note that I can't seem to get jack for assistance not that I've really tried.

WIC money is there and at least in California they will give it to pretty much ANY mother. They had more WIC money than people taking it.

If you are getting help from family then you are getting help from family, that doesn't and should effect unemployment and foodstamps or whatever it is called now is based on a formula. The womans boyfriends income doesn't effect most of what she is getting. What I would bet she is doing is putting down the rent she would be paying if she as paying rent, and the question usually is how much is the rent, they don't ask if you are actually paying it. The boyfriend simply does not officially live there so his income doesn't come into play as a member of the household.

Basically what she is doing is not as evil as you think she is doing what is allowed. There are people who go to the food bank, yes I have to go there for food because I'm a broke mo 'fo, who have multiple people in the same house signed up. They have relatives signed up and just say "I'm picking up for my family, my two sisters, and my cousin" and they get supplies for 15 people which equates to about enought to help three people. They also do this at multiple food banks, unless the weather is bad, when the weather is a little bad only those really in need show up.

I'm a bit conservative and I watch the people at the food bank and note that they have cell phones (I don't any longer), smoke cigarettes, talk about their wins and losses at the casinos, and that bothers me more than what the woman described did.
tommy
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Pretty soon every one will have a ration card. And if you do not do as you are told they will cut your ration. Like a job you will be told to do certain tasks.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2011-03-04 13:55, landmark wrote:
The way teachers are being treated all around the country should tell you everything you need to know. The concept of "educational reform" has nothing to do with education. It's all about cutting the budget as much as possible, transferring the money to the rich, and seeing what they can get away with. It looks like as you indicate that it's no different with the arts.


"transferring the money to the rich.". All that money the filters into the system from the poor, and the rich just swoop in and take it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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George Ledo
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Well, I'm hearing that's the way it is, and I happen to agree that in some cases that's the way it is.

So now the question comes up... who's going to put the bell on the cat?
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

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landmark
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Quote:
On 2011-03-06 19:25, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-03-04 13:55, landmark wrote:
The way teachers are being treated all around the country should tell you everything you need to know. The concept of "educational reform" has nothing to do with education. It's all about cutting the budget as much as possible, transferring the money to the rich, and seeing what they can get away with. It looks like as you indicate that it's no different with the arts.


"transferring the money to the rich.". All that money the filters into the system from the poor, and the rich just swoop in and take it.

Then you don't believe in taxes?
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