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Shrubsole
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Quote:
On 2011-03-16 09:31, Stefmagic wrote:
plus...you're talking about "tricks"...try to avoid this term when doing mentalism

I agree fully with that. I mean what is the premise as a mentalist for ACAAN?

Are you using your mental skills to influence their choices or are you predicting what they were going to say and the card is your prediction? Or both! IE You have set up a prediction in the deck and will try and influence what they chose and then see if you have succeeded with the reveal.

Whichever way, I think this needs to be expressed as to why exactly and what exactly you are doing. Otherwise (especially being a deck of cards) it will just be seen as A. N. Other card trick.)

So you have the great trick, now make it more 'Mentalist'

You could replace your 'Berglas' speech with a bit about influencing people. It would set up the routine nicely and people would understand what has just taken place.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
mindpunisher
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Actually I disagree with Shrub....DON'T MAKE IT MORE MENTALIST.....let them try and work out what they have seen its much more powerful. I hate all this NLP crap and " I can influence you". It weakens the mystery. Don't go there Theo its for the Derren Wannabees.


And well done for getting them all guessing how your effect is done after all that talking down to you had to put up with.

Enjoy the moment..

Last thing youy want is people to "understand" you want to take them to place were it blows away their
limits of reason. A place where its impossible.

Be careful of the advice you get on here.
Thomas Cooper
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Calm down guys, it's only a card trick! xD

I am happy with the effect, which I do NOT intend to release publically, and I'm glad that most people seem to appreciate it. Smile


Theo
xx
I call myself "Thomas Cooper" here because this stops the magic café appearing when people google my stage name.

Does anyone else find the term "Special User" to be a bit condescending?
mindpunisher
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It is just a card trick Theo but a nice one... And you knew this over board applause wouldn't last forever now you really are back to the Café...
Alan M
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Hello Theo,
The layman in me was awed, the mentalist inspired.

I'm glad to read that you do not intend to release the method. I think this art we all love so much needs MORE secrets.

Thanks for sharing your performance.

-Al
mindpunisher
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>>>>I'm glad to read that you do not intend to release the method. I think this art we all love so much needs MORE secrets<<<

There is hope for mentalism yet. Yes keep it to yourself Theo. I like your performance style too.
Roger Kelly
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If Theo's AOCAAN is just another card trick then I'm doomed! I might as well pack it in.

Ok, to some, more technically gifted than myself, maybe it is just a card trick. I don't really want to stir up the any place for cards in mentalism debate, because that been done to death - but Shrubs does discuss a valid point and one that's often had me wondering "under what premise must I be conveying such and such effect (that has a mentalism slant.) I can't speak for Theo's AOCAAN but in the case of the two versions I use, I find myself flitting between the premise of 'coincidence' and 'influence' (I ventured with a premonition once and that went down reasonably well.)

I love mentalsim card effects and, dare I say it, mix them with card magic. Beginning with a mentalsim theme before seguing (with Pre-Prefiguration,) into a magic routine. The mentalism effect always go down very well, and tend to, ah, kinda, set the scene and be a bit different from Dude Boring The World with Ambitious, Wallet or Ceiling! (Okay! I know - just my opinion.)

Theo, if you want my advice. Keep it to yourself mate. You've earned some respect here with this and, if you don't mind my saying so, you've allready given away a bit too much information. There are some unscrupulous types who watch these pages and I would not be surprised if they see what you have offered and call it their own. It's been done before. Put it in print by all means, seal it and POST it to yourself AND then stick it in the bank!

The problem is, Theo, if you release this - then be prepared for a slating from the hordes of the disappointed brigade thinking it to be the Grail On A Plate only to discover that they've actually got to do some work to make it happen!

Have a beer and smile that you've brought to the table a darned good discussion - but beware not to overcook it.
mindpunisher
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I think Theo was pointing out that "its just a card trick" and not worth causing a fuss over.. as in arguing on here. which it is no matter how you dress it.

Defining or over explaining something limits it. It also makes it a little boring. Your audience are creative let their minds run riot.
Roger Kelly
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Quote:
On 2011-03-16 14:56, mindpunisher wrote:
I think Theo was pointing out that "its just a card trick" and not worth causing a fuss over.. which it is no matter how you dress it.



I thought that too - and forgive my keyboard dyslexia - I know its not mentalslim!
cpbartak
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I'm not the biggest Richard Osterlind fan, but in his new book, The Principles of Mentalism, he offers this counter-opinion. Although I don't agree with everything he says, I do tend to favor his opinion on this matter:

"These days, there seems to be a belief among mentalists that they need to explain how they accomplish their mysteries, whether these explanations are true or not. (Please pay attention to the oxymoron in the last sentence!) They might define words like sychronicity, neuro-linguistic programming, and other scientific terms in an effot to make their acts seem more believable. Why? Why take away the charm of the mystery of mentalism and turn it into a scientific study? We have already shown that science is not necessarily to be equated with appeal and is often the opposite.

Nor is a lecture on more clasic themes of ESP, such as telepathy, clairvoyance and precognition necessarily what people want to hear. A mentalism show is supposed to be entertainment, not a classroom speech.

In addition, as pointed out earlier, most people already have beliefs about ESP and related phenomena. Some are skeptics on all things and some are true believers. To butt heads with either side is not going to endear you to anyone. In such an event, even those in the audience who are neutral will probably side with another audience member rather than you, as they are one of them.

On a more artistic level, why would you want to lessen the lvel of mystery? Why would you want to limit the possible explanations of your show rather than expand them? The more avenues you leave open, the greater your chance of entertaining more people. If there are some in your audience who want to think of you as simply a magician, fine. Let them. As long as they applaud and appreciate your mysteries, why should you care? And on the opposite side of the spectrum, if you have people who want to believe you have special powers, fine there, too. You won't change their minds by arguing and will only make them mad. As long as you don't claim anything, you aren't responsible.

The truth is, by taking this approach, you will create a much more colorful and multi-faceted show with varying degrees of beliefs at different points..."
Some people hear voices.. Some see invisible people.. Others have no imagination whatsoever.
alpha alex
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Well done Theodore. This was amazing
I loved your performance, I thought it was very slick
it was really really cool !

5 stars!
Roger Kelly
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Thanks cpbartak! That's certainly had me thinking! You make good sense there. I've certainly fallen into the 'trap' of 'needing' to explain what is is that I'm doing. I might just give that a good rethink! Great post - cheers.
Shrubsole
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It IS my OPINION that it needs to be more of a Mentalist routine or IT WILL look like a magic card trick and so not suitable for this forum.

A simple prediction effect is all that is needed to make it so. Predictions very much being a fundamental part of mentalism.

This is not an explanation but a premise.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Roger Kelly
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I'm in agreement, in principle, that it belongs in the Penny section as a mentalism effect. But cpbartak has now got me wondering if one actually needs to say anything?! Prediction or whatever. Just present the mystery and allow the spectator to decide? Bugger! I don't know what to do now! Re-write my script probably!
Shrubsole
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There are in fact lots of talk about ACAAN in the various Magical sections of the Café. They are there as without a mental premise ACAAN is just a card trick that magicians do.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Roger Kelly
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Quote:
There are in fact lots of talk about ACAAN in the various Magical sections of the Café. They are there as without a mental premise ACAAN is just a card trick that magicians do.

True!

I didn't actually mean say nothing at all - but not to venture down any particular lines of what premise it is supposed to be.

Establish a mentalism 'theatre' and then present the mysteries.

I dunno - my heads full and I'm reaching for me meds!
Shrubsole
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Than can work if you are doing something that fits with a Mentalism theatre, then being vague might work for one or two routines, but the whole reason to use a premise with card is to get it away from being a card trick and nothing to do with how someone decides to present their mentalism.

If doing something like Mockingbird I go out of my way to point out that we are not doing a card trick and part of that is 'freely' allowing them to fully shuffle the deck and for the punter to really have a free pick of whatever card they want. (All of that is of course part of the trick but I use it against them to set the premise that no card trick is taking place) If I where not to spell that out, then they would just think 'Oh a card trick!'

If however I'm doing an obvious mentalist routine like a prediction, then less explanation of anything is needed. The very fact that I deliver something I couldn't have known says it all.
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
Roger Kelly
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Quote:
On 2011-03-16 16:10, Shrubsole wrote:
If doing something like Mockingbird I go out of my way to point out that we are not doing a card trick and part of that is 'freely' allowing them to fully shuffle the deck and for the punter to really have a free pick of whatever card they want. (All of that is of course part of the trick but I use it against them to set the premise that no card trick is taking place) If I where not to spell that out, then they would just think 'Oh a card trick!'

Yup - I like that.

Quote:
If however I'm doing an obvious mentalist routine like a prediction, then less explanation of anything is needed. The very fact that I deliver something I couldn't have known says it all.

Very true. Sort of what I was thinking but put it across as a crock of sh!t.
bobser
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Some time ago Mark suggested that Theo sell this method and make a few bob. Iain disagreed, and gave an excellent reason why.
I had a think about it. I think I'd agree with Mark (although a part of me is totally with Iain).
My reasons are simply that I don't know any ACAAN type effect that either I myself or several of my magicky friends cannot work out in a very short period of time. I/they will either do it by stumbling onto THE identical method or churning out a different method (which no one can recognise since they don't know what the original method was!). What can I say? After a while doing this(in my case over 25 years)we become, at worst, highly experienced journeymen and get to know stuff!
My Point? many people like this item and will either get it spot on or a different version of it, which will do precisely the same. They will then make some pennies because their version was the first sold and less people wish to purchase something that is not the 'original' (first SOLD to the public) since they already have a method to do what they want to do(Magic geeks accepted).
There are literally hundreds of cases of this happening. It never used to like this but it absolutely is now. So...... when you show something, I truly believe that you then need to SELL it. Before someone else does!
I'll make a prediction here and now; if Theo doesn't sell this (and soon) someone else will.
Many in here will argue that I'm wrong (fair enough), but mentalists, who can do 'the chops', will know exactly what I'm talking about. I would never even consider it possible that I'd show this, then sit back with the belief that everyone will simply leave it alone waiting for me to nod my head.
I'm concerned that some might NOT want Theo to release this while they get theirs to the production line. I'd place good money that one or two are already considering it. SERIOUSLY!!! And, let's be honest, that'd be perfectly fair. A good idea doesn't care WHO uses it.
My advice.... get it constructed and sell it... NOW.
...... it's only a card trick.

Bob
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
Shrubsole
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I think the problem is that cards are massively associated with Magicians and something, anything, is needed to get the routine away from that. If left for them to decide what they are watching they will just default to cards tricks as that is what they know. They won't waste time thinking, Body language?, NLP?, Mind reading?, Clairvoyance?, Spirit help?

So I find that card need a bigger push into the mentalism arena than other things or at least an hint or two to say 'This is mentalism' not a card trick.

If not, then the reaction might be 'Wow! That was great, can you do the one where the deck changes colour?'
Winner of the Dumbringer Award for total incompetence. (All years)
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