It is nice to see some scripture being used in this thread. It is also interesting to see the classic pattern of western thinking triumphing. We must be very careful to avoid believing that personal convictions equal righteousness. By holding to this standard we make others a slave to every whimsical feeling we have for or against a certain thing. Are all called to organic farming, natural birthing, gospel magic, and light acoustic worship music? Certainly not. The vast majority of the New Testament (and some scholars might argue the entire bible) was largely written to combat heresy. They were not blessed with a sacred text in every home as we are and thus having men and women of God writing inspired words and reading them aloud over and over again would be very essential to their faith. Paul spent most of his writings combating heresies and thereby encouraging appropriate knowledge about the Lord and His Kingdom. It is certainly true that his original audience was vey different from us (1st century eastern culture verses 20th/21st century western-american culture). This is all to say that we must be careful to use the knowledge of scripture wisely because we have a responsibility to teach appropriate knowledge and wisdom from these texts and not throw half-scriptures around to prove ourselves right.
All this being said, we come back to the classic pattern that personal convictions will equal righteousness. It is true that the Spirit (or Helper, Jhn 14) brings convictions and wisdom, but does that then directly lead to righteousness? Yes. Obedience has always been the desire of the Lord (see the entire bible ;-) ). Here is the trick (pun intended), do those personal convictions lead to righteousness for others? Maybe, but maybe not. If one feels like they should never drink alcohol and I partake am I less righteous? Is she more righteous? As silly as this argument goes it is this realm of discussion we bring ourselves in when we begin to banter about how we ought to live this Christian life. We naturally bring our personal opinions and convictions into the discussion and expect, or desire, that others follow along because, darn it, "We have heard from the Lord." When others do not cave easily we then bring our favorite eisegesis (proof-texting) to convince others that we have a word from the Lord. Sometimes we may be accurate and lovingly desiring to "speak truth in love" or "restore a person with a spirit of gentleness" (Ephesians 4, Gal 6). Other times we may just want to push our convictions on others because when we share convictions we feel comfortable and safe in our faith.

There are a lot of words in the last paragraph but the point comes to this: What does Paul do with church arguments and disagreements that do not have a specific sin involved? He tends to remind them of the importance of living together without being a stumble for each other and also points them back to Christ’s example. When Paul deals with such things in his letter to the Corinth folk he simply points out that leading others into sin with our freedom is bad and we ought to remember Christ and live like Him (1 corinth 8, 10).

We need Christ, We need the word (bible), and we need each other (the Body/Church). The combination should lead to faith working itself out through love (Galatians 5:6). Lets be wise in how we communicate our convictions and wiser in how we hear others convictions.

disclaimer: this is NOT an argument for spiritual relativism in any form... nor pluralism... or polygamy... or the like. ;-)

Danny- say what?!?

seriously are you saying that christian music is not healthy!!! oh boy.

well I don't want to argue and you can believe what you will but the bible is filled with stories of singers and music and how important that was to god.
heck He told Jehoshaphat to put the singers FIRST!

any way music once played a huge part of my life. god spoke to me thru music many many times and the Holy spirit lead me to certain concerts and cds to buy.
sorry but music, magic, or what ever is not inherently evil. some use it for good some for bad.

I will not worry as I know that when I get to heaven God will be asking me to headline one of the nights for every one with my show! God loves to watch my show! that's why he gave me this skill of being an entertainer and using magic to be that vehicle to earn the right to be heard and unleash the truth of his love.

all that being said I will say this.
you MUST seek God and ask the Holy spirit if it is right for you. Only God knows the plans he has for us and unless we ask we will never know his purpose.

sam,

You are seriously mis-quoting me and putting words in my mouth I never said. I never said Christian music is not healthy. I said Christian rock music is not healthy, and I can give you many examples as to why. We can agree to disagree, but don't take me out of context, and then become sarcastic about it.

As far as God asking you to headline one of the nights for every one of your shows, remember, pride comes before the fall. I thank God He has never had to lead me to buy something or attend a concert to be fed with his Word. I can honestly say that God has never lead me to buy a c.d, or buy a ticket for a concert. When God wants to speak to me, He has His many ways, but I am grateful I have not had to buy something to grow closer to God.

Rock music has had its enemies ever since it first appeared on the scene. I was a rock music DJ. For almost 40 years! I got tossed out of two churches for my choice of career. It was a freaking JOB, for crying out loud! I had no control over what was played. It was all rock music! I never got "satanic", or "of the devil" like I WAS ACCUSED OF!

I also smoked cannabis for 30+ years...boy, you should have heard the judgement! Now it's been proven to cure all kinds of ills including some forms of cancer! Look how many states have legalized it! OOPS! Guess the naysayers were wrong! The problem with the Bible is it's TOO big! The basic message is buried in all kinds of stuff...

The message is this: #1. Put God FIRST in your life, in all things. #2. Treat your fellow man, the way YOU want to be treated! Follow that, and the rest of the Bible...well, it's good reading anyway!

Let's stop all the, "Christian Rock music is bad..." and whether going to a rock concert will send you to hell. We need to start ACTING like the basic message says. If we follow those two rules, all ten commandments are covered! I think Yeshua knew what He was talking about! Too many opinions out there have NOTHING to do with salvation! Eat what you like, smoke what you like, drink what you like. Who cares? YOU? Why???

However, if it "makes a brother stumble", do not do it around him! We all make our own choices. We have NO right telling another person that his taste in music, food, or the like is wrong! I cannot stand traditional Gospel music. That's just me though. I will never tell you that you are wrong for liking it.

We are judged on INTENT, folks. Food, music, smoking materials, Magic...it's all external! How we treat ONE ANOTHER...that is what we are judged on! If a person P's you off, do you forgive them? Do you hold a grudge? Bad-mouth them? It all comes back around, folks! Think of someone you have something against, and truly FORGIVE them! That is the first step. Be thankful to God every day! For everything.

Doug

The "Put God first" encompasses a mighty big swath all by itself. Things like: "Be ye holy for I am holy". Which tells me that God does indeed draw lines for our actions, as well as for our intentions.

What the lines are and where - there's enough in the Bible to keep me busy without having to manufacture more or jump through anyone elses' hoops.

We will definitely be judged by much more than intentions. Words, honesty, what we refused to submit to, what we did on our own without His approval ..... I am not my own; I do not have the right to live by my own personal standards.

Ed

I still think K C Cameron poses a very thought provoking comment/question. IF all real magic is deemed satanic then why should we witness or proclaim the message with a "magic-light" imitation method of something satanic? I mean I am familiar with the majority of rebuttals to criticisms etc and I am a gospel magic performer but... Still something to think about. Havent heard a really good response to that, yet.

Glen

Danny Kazam-as far as chirstian rock goes God has spoken to me many times thru white cross, petra and a host of other christian rock bands and thankful for their ministries.

as for the buying something to hear god maybe I was not clear in how I said that. yes may times god has led me to a concert or to buy a certain CD you see first I prayed and asked the Holy spirit what cds to buy and what concerts to go and then when god speaks and the holy spirit leads I obey.

and the comment about performing in heaven has nothing to do with pride but rather the fact that I know God loves me and gave me these awesome talents and He is excited to see his children glorify HIM thru those talents. I think I might be the opening act for Andre Kole! not sure as I don't have the tour schedule LOL


Glen-first when you say "real" magic what are you referring too? psychics?? there is no such thing no not one! fortune tellers- again don't exist.
if you are reffering to demonic things that the bible speaks of I think we are talking 2 different things. the bible is clear about contacting the dead or I should say attempting to contact the dead but at the same time the bible says nothing of what we do as entertainment.

I don't know that any one can give you the answer you are looking for but I think it is not as big of a deal as we tend to make it.

just my thoughts

sam

Hi Sam,

First let me say that I am not in complete disagreement with you. What we differ in is in my opinion a minor in theology.

I only have one question. What has God taught you through White Cross, Petra, and a host of other Christian rock bands that God hasn't already taught us in His inspired scriptures? This is an honest question in hopes for me to understand more about what you have said and not a question to raise dispute. I am forever learning and growing, but things God has taught me in scripture has been chiseled in my heart.

The Bible doesn't directly talk about entertainment, but there are many scriptures which tell us how we should conduct ourselves. We are not our own, but have been bought and paid for by the blood of Christ. I am a wretched sinner who needs to continue to die from myself in order for me to live for Christ.

Glen, I don't know if I have the right answer, but let me give it a try. When witnessing for Christ, our words should not even be our own. If we are in the Spirit, the Spirit will find the words for us that will speak directly to the person's heart. We don't need to use magic or anything else other than the Holy Spirit and God's Holy Words. We choose to use material things because of our lack of faith. Yet, I still haven't met a man who can make a mountain move based on their faith alone, only because we are born with sin, and as long as we have sin in our lives faith can never be fully manifested through us.

I take the examples of the early disciples who used nothing but the Holy Spirit and God's inspired words. They didn't have to sing and dance first, nor did they have to entertain them first. That's because I believe they were great men of faith. And, why shouldn't they be. They walked with Christ, witnessed His miracles first hand. Us, on the other hand still struggle with doubt and are in great need of more faith. If we had half the faith the disciples had, we wouldn't be using anything but the Holy Spirit to lead us, and God's Word.

Does it mean we are terrible because we do? We are terrible regardless, but God loves us so much that he sent His only Son to pay the penalty of our sins. We are free in Christ as long as we are first dead to ourselves.

Hi Danny -- I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the honest questions.

it is not so much what I learned as most of the times it was answers to questions I had or concerns about where I should be or go. and thru their music god spoke to me. God for many years spoke to me thru music. it was His way of communicating with me and yes He also communicated thru His word the bible and other ways as well. But music was some thing special.

I can tell you dozens of times that I needed to hear from god I needed a specific answer and after spending some times minutes on my knees and some time close to 30 or so minutes on my knees He would lead me to either turn the radio on (christian radio that is) or get a certain cd out and play it. and there would be a song that specifically delt with my very question. No not a coiencedence it was the spirit moving.

I believe the lord knows our hearts and he knew that for me I needed to hear the words thru music. yet some times it was just a small still voice other times it was thru the preacher at church.

since becoming profoundly deaf I no longer listen to music and at first I thought that meant God did not want to speak to me any more. I have learned that He now has a more intamite way to speak to me and lead me. even right now this very conversation on the Café is part of Gods dealing with me and some of the very questions I have been dealing with. then there you are asking a question forcing me to look to God for wisdom. he is using this moment to answer and remind me of several promises he has made to me that for some reason I seem to forget.

chirstians are like that though, God proves himself or does some thing for us and then time passes and we seem to forget what He has done. I don't like that but I am super happy and super thankful that He continues to chase after me and remind me how much he loves me and that the Holy Spirit is right here to help me any time I need guidence.

How awesome is our God!!

sam

I have also been around long enough to have gone through the Christian rock music debate and all the fuss etc. For those who are inspired to create the music and those that can be blessed from it, it isn't intended as some kind of new revelation on par with the divine Word. It's music. God gave us emotions and the ability to feel deeply and be reached through music and other art forms.

On my previous question, I almost agree with Sams' response but I guess I am still not sure what the Bible specifically means when we read the term "magician". I see other terms and titles and I think I understand what they mean but I don't see examples of what it means when the term magician is used (and it's never positive). There is the magicians in Egypt that were duplicating some of the things Moses was doing at the Lords instruction. Now either those were done (by the Egyptian magicians) by some little known scientific methods or... they were doing some kind of black magic of their own. Other references concerning the term magician do not have specific examples of what they do or what it means to be one. I honestly am not really hung up on this and am not presently conflicted over performing gospel magic but have just been thinking along this vein since the question was posed here by KC Cameron.

Glen

I'm thinking - my own opinion - that God loves to use the "languages" of the various people he contacts to speak to them. Sam was spoken to through music, and a certain style of music. Some hear God's message wonderfully through a magic show - and others (thinking of the tongues reference in Acts 2) think we are mad. (*Not* trying to opne up a "tongues" debate - simply using it as a metaphor.)

I think that was the essence behind Paul's "all things to all people": it is on us to speak _their_ language, rather than trying to force a natural mind to understand the things of God.

As far as "magician" - again, I think it has a different meaning in "today's language". And perhaps rather than getting into a clash of doctrines and Hebrew and "I'm right and you're wrong!", maybe we could actually use it as an opportunity to dialog and get closer to a bit of that unity Jesus prayed for.

Ed

I have noted this article before in other threads, but here it is again:

http://www.andrekoleministry.com/Magic_and_the_Bible.pdf

Terry

This is a very interesting thread indeed. I do appreciate the candor and grace that is offered as this unfolds. I have a couple of pennies that I'd like to throw into the conversation...

Danny asked what could be learned from White Cross or Petra that couldn't be learned from God's Word? That isn't a direct quote, but I don't think I'm taking him out of context. The simple answer to that, nothing. The more complicated answer, everything. Quite simply, God has revealed Himself to us through His Word. I believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. That being said, when I was a teenager (in the 80's), I had a tough time understanding the King James translation of the Scriptures. Petra (in particular) began to take some of the complexities of Scripture and put them in "plain English" - plain enough that a dumb kid from Missouri could start to see God more clearly.

Petra's song, Godpleaser, has been one of my very favorite songs since the very first time I heard it. The message of the song is the theme of my life - "Don't wanna be a manpleaser. I wanna be a Godpleaser. I just wanna have the wisdom to discern the two apart. Don't wanna be a manpleaser. I wanna be a Godpleaser.I just wanna do the things that please the Father's heart." It is not my life's theme because it is a Petra song, it is my life's theme because it draws me to the truth found in Scripture:

Colossians 3:17 "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."

Colossians 3:23-24 "Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving."

Ephesians 5:1 "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

did Petra teach me something that I couldn't have learned if I would've just read these (and other) vereses? No. But, I wasn't reading God's Word like I should've been and Petra pointed me to it.

I don't want to get judgmenal, but I will tell you that I don't think that all of the bands that mareket themselves as a "Christian" band are true to God's Word. We are told that we should test everything and hold on to that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

Now, to get to the point of magic. The article that Andre Kole has written is very good. It helped me settle some of the frustrations that I was dealing with. Glen asked a question about the use of the word magic in Scripture. I have studied what the Scriptures say (I don't propose that I'm an expert, but here are some observations) and found that the Greek words translated magician or sorcerer are words that clearly don't apply to "modern" magic that uses sleight of hand. The Greek words are magea or pharmekeia (this may not be an inclusive list). A magea (magician or sorcerer) is one that practices pharmekeia (sorcery). A sorcerer was a druggist, a poisoner, a giver of potions. Don't confuse this ancient use of pharmekeia with our modern phamacists - these ancient sorcerers would be best compared to modern day drug dealers. These were men and women who engaged in the selling of potions for the purpose of stimulating hallucinations and visions.

The modern magician cannot be directly compared with Simon the sorcerer (Acts 8) because there are two different meanings behind the words. While we might get some flack because of the confusion of the definitions, our English language is a language that is constantly evolving and the meanings of words are almost constantly in some form of flux. Just look a the changes in the meaning of the words fag and gay in my own lifetime.

If you employ some kind of potion or drug to induce your audience into an altered state - you have a problem.
If you are seeking the aid of spirits to give you wisdom or help you manipulate something - you have a problem.
If you are using sleight of hand, science, and gimmicks to make things look like something they are not, then you just need to be clear that there is an explantion for all the things that you do. I usually tell my congregation (yes, I occassionally use a "trick" as an object lesson in a message) that I could teach any of them to do what I'm about to do - there is nothing spiritual about the "trick" except the lesson that I'm hoping we learn from it.

I've used the Siberian Chain Escape to illustrate freedom from sin (John 8, Romans 6 and 8, 2 Peter 2). Most recently I used Andre Kole's three ball gospel illusion to show the barrier of sin removed from between God and man.

Do the tricks teach something that isn't in the Bible? No. Do they help make something in the Bible come to life in way that might catch someone's attention and point them to Christ? Maybe. And I will do whatever I can to try to point people to Christ.

I usually carry around a simple, 3-card trick using two Aces and the King of Hearts. The king is sandwiched between the two aces, the cards are turned face down and the spectator either takes or holds (depending upon if there is a table) the middle card but doesn't look at it. I turn over the two cards that remain in my hand, the two aces and ask the spectator what card they hold, when they reply "the king of hearts" I tell them to turn over their card to make sure and they have a card with a portrait of Jesus (the true King of Hearts) on it.

Super simple. Great conversation starter - again it doesn't teach anything that isn't alreay in the Bible, but it does give me an opportunity to bring the Bible into the conversation.

Thanks for the thought provoking discourse. Thanks for being so gracious (even in disagreement). And, particularly to Kif, thanks for the great ideas for using more magic to help make Scripture and the truths found there come to life. Hope my thoughts have been worth at least 2 cents.

JD

Well said! You are absolutely right when you say God will speak to us in many different ways. You make a very good point. When God wants to speak to us, nothing will keep Him short of it. The awesome thing is that we don't have to meet God where He's at. (Thank goodness for that eh!) God comes down and meets us where we're at. Man, that means so much to me because if it wasn't for God seeking me first, and meeting me where I was at, I don't know how my life would of turned out so far. kinda scary to think about it.

Great explaination on the difference between the word "magic, magician" defined by biblical definition and the same two words defined by most general population today. And especially thanks for taking the time to write a very good response.

Lately I have been reading more of Hurlburts stories on the Bible.

It was written back in the 30's(or 40's) and is easy to follow and doesn't stray from God's words.

I continue to share my love of the Lord through magic, music and yes even reading the Bible.

Ten years or so I got caught up reading the Left Behind series.
I finally put them down when I realized I needed to get back to the Bible instead of reading about it.

A combination still works.

God is good ..all the time..that is his nature.

There is another force that has a nature to lie and deceive us.
It can use all sorts of things like food, sweets, gambling..coveting to take us away from what is the true source.

love
brother Harris
aka dr. laugh

Thanks for all the postings in this thread. I have not run into anyone questioning the use of magic in ministry but I am sure it is just a matter of time.

Mike

Yes, they are interesting 'reads' but I know too many who make this thinking their religion.

Whatever He wants, will happen!

Before it all 'happens', I include some magic for illustration and clarification, especially to young children. Even so, the Word speaks for itself.

Yeah you definitely want to avoid misleading people into thinking you have supernatural powers. Because there is a realm of demonic magic out there, and you don't want people getting involved in the occult.

First of all, I don't think these days you won't find many people who actually think, what a magician does is true magic. Except you pretend to be a miracle worker and you have real superpowers (like Uri Geller did for years), but then I would not call you a magician.

As it comes to card tricks. Card magic does not need to have anything to do with gambling. There are a lot of other things you could do. For example, I like to do a lot of impromptu card tricks. If you let people shuffle the cards and talk about, that there are over 60 Million possibilities how a deck could be arranged and no one would believe that the cards would end up in complete order just by coincidence. And the universe ore even live, our DNA is even much more complex with much more possibilities. So how could any one believe, it just happened by coincidence. Then I present the deck in order - with the cards that's just me, with the universe, with live - it must have been god. Can't be coincidence.

I think you could do beautiful things with cards.

[quote]On Sep 3, 2012, Danny Kazam wrote:
I know this is an old post, so don’t know if Danny is still there- or if he is the same Danny now( we all change - especially Christians, becoming more Christ-like. But I know I was spiritually challenged to be more like Jesus by several christian rock singers even back in the 70’s! I don’t think syncopation is evil. It actually exists in most music formsI’ I’m not a singer, but I pray my magical skills (nothing inate, for sure) will be used to direct some kids (and oldies) in my ministry to Him. I think 1 Cor 6:12 is applicable to ANY enterpirise that is not directed by serving Jesus in some way, because that means we act for a different master, even if it’s ourselves. I thank God for the ministries of Christian singers (whatever genre..check out Lecrae) and magicians. I’m not saying there are NO areas of entertainment that are inherently wrong, but rock music and legerdemain are not in my list.