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Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
There are many different card counting methods in Blakcjack. Which is everyone's favorite? Details and Description? I personally like the FELT system developed by QFIT.
http://qfit.com/book/index.htm Count Type: Balanced Tags 2-A: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 0, 0, -2, -2
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
Why do you prefer this count? What would make you pick one count over another?
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Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
1) Different Counts are easier to learn (IE: a Level 1 only has 0s and 1s; Level 2 has 0s, 1s, and 2s.. etc).
2) There are also different numbers of indexes with varying counts (those would be deviations from basic strategy based on the true count (TC)). 3) Some counts are balanced versus unbalanced, balanced being that you start the running count (RC) at 0 at the beginning of each shoe; unbalanced you start with a number (depending on the count you're using) that will leave you at 0 if all the cards in the shoe were shuffled. 4) Some count strategies are better suited for double deck - DD and single deck - SD play, and others for shoe play (6 - 8 decks). 5) Most importantly, different counts have varying Playing Efficiencies - PE (how well the indexes navigate basic strategy deviations), Betting Correlations - BC (how efficient the betting ramps are for the count-style as the TC rises), and Insurance Correlation - IC (how efficient the strategy is at predicting whether you should buy insurance or not). 6) A lot has to do with the numbers, but numbers are only accurate on a "long term" scale. Most of what factors into choosing a count strategy has to do with personal preference: whether you play DD or shoe, which is easiest for you to learn, whether you want to learn indexes or not or how many, etc...
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
I know all of that. I was asking why YOU prefer this count, and what made YOU pick it over others. FELT is an uncommon choice.
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Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
I started with KO and liked it then wanted to move on to something else just for fun. I tried playing around with different level 3 tags for a better PE and BC but it was all much more complicated than was needed. Then I was debating between UBZII and UstonSS, I liked UBZII but upon further discussion with other counters I felt it best to switch from an unbalanced count to a balanced one. About that time, someone brought to my attention on balckjackinfo.com forum about QFIT's FELT system. I looked it over, and everything was really well explained, it was balanced which is what I wanted. It was a level 2 so it had more power than a level 1 but was not as complicated as a level 3. Best of all, it and its indexes and betting ramps were FREE!
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
That sure is a bunch of systems.
I'd been practicing the red seven count but thinking of switching over to a balanced count with simplified indices. FELT looks nice. I may actually use it. The FELT bet ramps may be free, but it's always good to use CVData/CVCX to sim optimal ramps, I imagine they could vary depending on your local store's rules. |
cinahcem New user 61 Posts |
I may come off as a novice to card counter, however I thought there was one way of counting such as 2-6 +1 7-9 0 10-A -1 . Do other styles over different advantages?
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splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
Each counting system must have a few components:
1) Tags - Such as 2-6 +1, 7-9 0, 10-A -1 (Classic HiLo), 2-6 +1, Red 7 +1, Black 7 0, 8-9 0, X-A -1 (Red Seven), etc. Tags of -1 to 1 make up for a level 1 counting system, tags of -2 to +2 make up a level 2 system, etc. If after counting a full deck the total is 0, we call the system a balanced system. If it's not 0, it's an unbalanced system. HiLo is balanced. Red Seven is unbalanced with a count of +2 for each deck counted. People who use unbalanced counts generally use a starting count based on the number of decks, for example starting at -16 for Red Seven with an 8-deck shoe. If you were to count every card in the shoe by starting at -16 with Red Seven, you'd end at 0. Balanced counts usually require one to convert the running count to a true count per deck (or per half deck, or something else), while unbalanced counts usually just uses the running count. An unbalanced count is generally less precise than a balanced count but easier to use (since it doesn't require on the fly conversion to a true count). The point of tags is to give you a way to measure the imbalance between tens and aces and the rest of the deck, and thus a way to approximate the current house edge. 2) Betting strategy - At what count does the player start to have an advantage over the house? From that count on, you want to be raising your bets. Less than that, since the house has an advantage, you bet the minimum. The amount that you bet at each count makes up your betting ramp. We usually speak about betting ramps in terms of units. For example, if you're spreading 1-10, that means at the lowest bet you're betting 1 unit, and at the highest you're betting 10 units. Those units could be $1 chips (betting $1-$10), they could be $25 chips ($25-$250), or anything else you like. There exists programs to calculate optimal betting ramps for various counts and situations. You may also have to account for camouflage, but that's a more advanced topic. The count we're using here for the betting strategy would be the true count in a balanced system and the running count in an unbalanced one. The count where we first get an advantage over the house is called the pivot. Red Seven pivot is at +2 per deck, which is why Red Seven players will generally have an initial count of -2 times the number of decks being played, which makes the pivot 0 for every variation. With HiLo, your count at 0 indicates an edge that is the same as off the top, meaning about -1/2%. Each +1 (in true count again) above that indicates a 1/2% edge increase (IE true count of 1 is about house edge + 1/2% so about breakeven depending on initial house edge, 2 is about 1/2% in favour, etc). 3) Playing strategy - these are indices that indicate deviations from proper basic strategy based on the count. The major strategy deviation is insurance. For HiLo, you would take insurance at +3. For Red Seven, at +2, or for the advanced Red Seven variation, in the latter half of shoe games, insure at +4. For Zen, insure at +1. Other strategy deviations must then be learned. These deviations will be from the closest decisions a normal blackjack player would have (such as 16v10, 15v10, TTv5, TTv6, TvT, 12v3, 12v2, etc). For example, in FELT, you would hit 16v10 (basic strategy), unless the count was 0 or above, in which case you'd stand. 12v2 you would usually hit (basic strategy) unless the true count was +6 or above, which would mean you'd stand. You can come up with deviations for almost any blackjack hand, but some will occur so very seldom (at such high or low counts) that they aren't worth your time to learn. Again, there are programs that allow you to run simulations and see how much of an edge you get with a specified set of indices, etc. There are programs to calculate what the indices for play deviations are when given what tags you are using. You can also decide to use a simplified set of indices (such as with Red Seven, HiLo lite, or FELT) where you deviate from strategy at a different count than is optimum but which makes the strategy easier to memorize. For example, FELT uses a simplified set of indices; one set at 0, another at +6, and nothing else. This doesn't capture the full advantage of using exact indices, but it captures most of it, and is much easier to remember and use. When you combine those three factors, then you have a counting system. Now the reason you may want to use different counting systems are myriad. Some of them are good for shoe games, other for single or double deck games. Some are simple to use and require very little math, some are more complex, require you to do multiplications and divisions in your head, but capture more of the advantage you can get. Some use side-counts of certain cards, for example to make better insurance decisions (especially in single and double deck games, I believe), or sometimes to make strategy deviations for sidebets (lucky ladies, over/under 13, etc). You can also find a system that actually count every single card independently and will give you an theoretical optimum edge based on the exact composition of the remaining cards, but unless you are rain man you can't just do that mentally. These systems are used by perfect strategy computers, which have been used as covert devices by players in casinos. Don't get caught, though.... So that's a bird's eye, amateurish view of what card counting systems entail. |
Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
Phew! that is a lot of info Splice! Thanks for typing it so I didn't have to haha. I believe that balanced counts are the way to go. A TC is more complicated due to deck estimation and TC conversion than a simple RC for unbalanced systems, BUT I think I had several discussions on blackjackinfo.com where we concluded that unbalanced systems only reach their theoretical BC/PE/IC when they are tru-counted. In which case, why not just learn a balanced system from the get go.
Since FELT was created by the people who designed CVData, I don't see much reason to think there's a problem, but yes, rules vary so I guess technically so should bet ramps. Again though, all statistics are assumed over MILLIONS of hands of blackjack multiple lifetimes worth.
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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Kirjava Regular user 118 Posts |
Wow. I always wondered about the different counting systems. Thanks a lot for the info
One another thing I wondered about that you touched in your explanation (and thus I assume you know more about it ) is the "rain man" system. Considering that the actual world champion can memorize a deck of cards in 21.90 seconds (value + suits), surely it's doable to memorize one or two deck without memorizing the suits in a Blackjack game ? I must confess that my knowledge of mnemonics and casinos is purely theoretical though, so I'd love to get your insight here |
Tony45 Veteran user 384 Posts |
You better have a huge bankroll, a ton of patience, the stomach to weather the wild swings and know how to disguise your play. And after all that, its still iffy at best. To me its a waste of time, but to each his own.
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Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
Tony you are right in all aspects except for the waste of time part, which is (of course) circumstantial. it takes a HUGE bank roll and tons of practice to be sufficient at (much like magic). The higher the bankroll you start with, the lower your RoR (Risk of Ruin - probability that you will loose everything). It is not something to get involved in if you only want to make a few bucks (basic strategy should help with that) or if you're young and should be investing in your future or education or raising a family, etc... If you have the money potentially "waste" and the time to practice then perhaps consider card counting.
As for the rain man thing, I'm sure its been discussed before but I can't remember the outcome off the top of my head. but basically ASM (auto shuffling machines) are going to *** you in the *** when it comes to trying memorize the order of cards. If you're thinking about using the "seen" cards to figure a probability to affect you play on "unseen" cards' that is actually what card counting systems are designed to do. % of seen cards 10+ and 10- to gauge future bets and play.
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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Tony45 Veteran user 384 Posts |
Red Eye, I been dealing and practicing the count for years, against the shoe its as tough a grind as there is. On a double deck IF you can get away with a small bet spread AND pick weak spots, you can do something, sure. But those spots are extremely hard to find, but I wouldnt even waste my time on a shoe game anymore, especially with the rule changes that all the joints have put in, in the last 7 or so years. Just not worth the headache, they got the help trained to look for big spreads and anyone who comes in towards the end of a shoe firing it up is automatically suspect. Its a good topic of discussion for sure as I have nailed quite a few guys counting and I only do it out of boredom, lol. One thing with some counters, if they werent so damm cheap they would get a lot less heat if they threw a couple greens up there for us once in a while. Instead they want to be stiff and so I make the turn to the floor and say call the eye. Now if you make a small bet for me once in a while and the floor asks me anything, I would say what a nice guy that fellow was.
But its a tough gig, no two ways about it. |
splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
Kirjava, even if someone were to memorize every card to come out from one or two decks, that's not even a start.
Say we're playing a single deck game. First, we're concerned about remembering every card that comes out. The order doesn't matter. Once we know what's come out, we need to calculate what's remaining in the deck. Not so hard so far. Now, we want a betting strategy. So we need to know the effect of removal of every single card, and we need to calculate what advantage/disadvantage we have with the dealt cards removed. That means after 10 cards are dealt, we need to know our advantage if those ten cards were aces and tens. Or fives, eights and sixes. Or two aces, three teens, one deuce and four sixes. Or any other and every other possible combination. Now we know how to bet when ten cards are removed and remember which ones. Of course we need to memorize every one of those combinations, but also every other possible combination of 11 cards removed, 9 cards removed, up to perhaps 40-45 cards removed. That right there is a ton of calculations it's unlikely for anyone to be able to recall all of these. But now we get to the real meat and potatoes, the playing strategy. For each possible composition of each possible hand, we need to know what to do for each possible dealer upcard, while considering the cards removed. So, say, for 16, you need to know what to do when your 16 is 9-7, and for 9-7 you need to know what to do when the dealer shows a ten, and you need to know what to do when three deuces and four eights and 2 aces and whatever else is removed. Now, what about 9-3-4? The strategy could be different because the composition is different. What about 8-5-3? What about if three eights were removed, not four? There's just way too much to remember to think that anyone could implement a perfect strategy at the table without a computer's help. |
Kirjava Regular user 118 Posts |
Oh I see... I never thought it would be that complicated. I guess we do need the "simpler" more traditional approach
Thanks for clarifying Red Eyed Coyote and splice. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I prefer a classic hi-lo count. The only variation I use is to keep track of the 5's. I pay attention to the aces, but don't actually track them as a side count.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
Tony, I am very sorry for assuming you were a novice. Again, you are correct on all points :-D It's a very tough gig. I confess to not having very much "luck" with it. Most people learn something and stick to the books and WORSE, they totally flaunt it and never stop to think about cover or that casino security could pretty much give you a prostate exam w/ all the cameras haha. Rather than a living, I would consider it a hobby to waste away your retirement fund on
Kirjava - This --> "There's just way too much to remember to think that anyone could implement a perfect strategy at the table without a computer's help." which is why iphones are too smart for their stupid users own good sometimes(reference to the card counting app)
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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Steven Conner Inner circle 2720 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-03-23 22:01, Tony45 wrote: Jack Uston and his students made a ton of money in Vegas. His legacy is still in litigation after all these years. If you have a good system, and are good, you can have a big bank roll. Steve
"The New York Papers," Mark Twain once said,"have long known that no large question is ever really settled until I have been consulted; it is the way they feel about it, and they show it by always sending to me when they get uneasy. "
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Red Eyed Coyote New user 35 Posts |
Any thoughts on the "luck" involved in BJ? haha, that question seems ironic since I just read Richard Wiseman's "The Luck Factor" lol
Behind this mask is an idea, and ideas, Mr. Creedy, are bulletproof.
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