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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Shawn Farquhar & Russ Stevens » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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msmaster
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In going over this thread I notice that neither camp has stated that they are even licensed or have any legal right what-so-ever to use the music in question. If in fact, neither has licensed the use of Shape of My Heart, they are guilty of stealing another's work, preceisely what Stevens is accusing Farquhar of. Since Stevens is on this thread, please answer yes or no now: Russ Stevens have you licensed Shape of My Heart? Donal Chayce has outlined what is required in this matter and since Russ Stevens has commented on this thread repeatedly since Chayce's post it is curious as to why he has not adressed this question with a simple yes or no answer.

Russ, if the answer is no, you are stealing a creative artist's work without his permission. In any event I'm in agreement with others, doing a card trick to a song that names different cards doesn't seem such a genius bit of creativity. Certainly not something to blow up into a major dispute since every single magician on the face of the earth who ever heard the song might easily and instantly think of the same idea. Lies or not, I just don't see the big artistic merit or achievement worth defending in simply thinking of doing a card trick to a song that names cards.
Alan Rorrison
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Russ performed it on a tv show. The rights would have been acquired by the network. Sorry I thought this would have been a given
SHOC
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Msmaster -

The issue of performace rights has been addressed previously in this thread. Please reread it.


Reading your comments, I question whether or not you have read the thread at all as you do not appear to understand the issue.
Tim Ellis
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Dfield said "We should respect EVERYBODY'S creativity and concepts. Too often we see magicians ideas stolen and it's time this stopped. If we don't make noise then it will only get worse. Youtube is creating so many copy cat magicians that it's even more relevant now that ever. Clubs and organizations NEED to clamp down and do something about this."

Though this is slightly derailing the thread, I agree with the sentiment expressed by dfield and others in this thread,and I'd love to hear people's opinions as to how we, as a community, can deal with this sort of thing.

EXAMPLE 1 - Sittah performs an illusion presentation at FISM and Ayala claims after the fact that it was his. He approaches FISM, they investigate and Sittah makes a public apology and stops using the presentation.

EXAMPLE 2 - The Pendragons come up with the ingenious idea of tearing the cloth apart during the sub trunk to make it appear faster. Everyone starts doing it. Jonathan simply accepts that it's inevitable his idea will be ripped off and starts working on something else new to try to "stay ahead of the game"

EXAMPLE 3 - Anders Moden releases 'Healed & Sealed Soda' and Magic Makers releases 'Crushed & Cured Cola'. Both items are still being sold despite one being a blatant copy.

EXAMPLE 4 - In 1991 Tim Ellis (me) wins 'Special Prize of the Jury' at FISM for the Six Card Rap. In 2007 John Kaplan releases his 'Card Rap' (which he claims to have developed in 1996 and says he has never, ever seen mine) but I have no choice but to accept that it's "independent creation" and the effect continues to be sold (with many people buying it thinking they are getting my trick).


I've chosen those four examples because they are all slightly different, but illustrate the same case in point. A trick or presentation is created, then copied - sometimes intentionally, sometimes independently - the fourth example is similar to the Stevens/Farquhar case at hand, but the outcome was quite different.

So, and try to keeps things non-personal here, what do you guys suggest the community can/should do in these instances?
HerbLarry
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Can do nothing.
Should move on.
You know why don't act naive.
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2011-04-05 20:42, SHOC wrote:
Msmaster -

The issue of performace rights has been addressed previously in this thread. Please reread it.


Reading your comments, I question whether or not you have read the thread at all as you do not appear to understand the issue.


What's your position on the matter?
Maybe offering a link to the post(s) in question for msmaster would be helpful as well.

Kindly add to the discussion.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Donal Chayce
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Quote:
On 2011-04-05 19:01, Alan Rorrison wrote:
Russ performed it on a tv show. The rights would have been acquired by the network. Sorry I thought this would have been a given


Well, typically the cost of the aforementioned licenses are split between the network broadcasting the program (they cover the public performance license via a blanket license with the applicable performing rights society) and the production company or studio who actually produced the program (they cover the sync and master use licenses). But even if that's the case with the TV show on which Russ performed his routine, it would only cover his performance of the routine on that show, nothing more.

I have no way of knowing if Russ has performed the routine anywhere else. Do you know? If you do, and if he has, do you know if he acquired the necessary music rights for those performances?
msmaster
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Thank you Donal. What's your answer Russ?
russ stevens
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Hello msmaster and Donal Chayce,

Of course, I am sure that Shawn Farquhar, like myself has always had PRS music rights and licenses covered by TV companies and venues wherever we have worked. I've done that routine twice on television over the years and both times were for the BBC in the UK and of course rights and licenses were paid.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Russ
Tony Curtis
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Quote:
On 2011-04-06 00:22, msmaster wrote:
Thank you Donal. What's your answer Russ?

This thread is about the creative idea by Russ Stevens of performing a magic routine to the Shape of My Heart song by Sting which Shawn Farquhar also claims to have come up with independently. Why it has now been turned into a music copyright discussion I am not sure, so can we now get back to the original format for which it was intended.

Tony Curtis
russ stevens
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Hello Everyone,

Tony, thanks for getting the thread back on track!

Tim's post is of course quite correct until the 4th and final point. The difference between our cases is that I actually found out that my presentation HAD been seen beforehand and therefore wasn't independently created.

Best,
Russ
Tony Curtis
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Quote:
On 2011-04-06 02:13, russ stevens wrote:
Hello Everyone,

Tony, thanks for getting the thread back on track!

I would like to add that Russ & Shawn both perform a cameo style magic sequence to the Shape of My Heart track. Personally I think these two words (cameo & style) are very important when looking at the facts that have been stated as to the originality of the routine.

Tony Curtis
gjmagic
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Quote:
On 2011-04-05 21:07, Tim Ellis wrote:

EXAMPLE 1 - Sittah performs an illusion presentation at FISM and Ayala claims after the fact that it was his. He approaches FISM, they investigate and Sittah makes a public apology and stops using the presentation.


From all the evidence assembled and presented here and in other forums, I would say EXAMPLE 1 would apply here to a certain extent, except of course the evidence leads towards prior knowledge of said routine!

Gary Jones.

Quote:
On 2011-04-05 21:07, Tim Ellis wrote:

EXAMPLE 2 - The Pendragons come up with the ingenious idea of tearing the cloth apart during the sub trunk to make it appear faster. Everyone starts doing it. Jonathan simply accepts that it's inevitable his idea will be ripped off and starts working on something else new to try to "stay ahead of the game"

EXAMPLE 3 - Anders Moden releases 'Healed & Sealed Soda' and Magic Makers releases 'Crushed & Cured Cola'. Both items are still being sold despite one being a blatant copy.

EXAMPLE 4 - In 1991 Tim Ellis (me) wins 'Special Prize of the Jury' at FISM for the Six Card Rap. In 2007 John Kaplan releases his 'Card Rap' (which he claims to have developed in 1996 and says he has never, ever seen mine) but I have no choice but to accept that it's "independent creation" and the effect continues to be sold (with many people buying it thinking they are getting my trick).


Just to answer the other three examples, IMO...

EXAMPLE 2, most magicians will know this that was the Pendragons idea, so the magicians who are using this presentation will lose all respect from the fraternity and will be labeled as copycats. Unfortunately lay people won't know any of this so the Pendragons won't get the full credit they're due. Luckily for us laypeople don't see that much live magic so there wouldn't be much point in changing the routine, obviously the Pendragons decided otherwise for their own reasons.

EXAMPLE 3, This is wrong and I have no idea of the legal side of things, but forums like this are a great place to inform people of this type of thing (just check out all the copies coming out of China!). All we can do is to keep people informed and avoid buying copies.

EXAMPLE 4, again I have no idea of the legal side, if it was a genuine case if independent creation then John Kaplan should at the very least acknowledge you as the original creator, as you have the proof that you were the first to create this effect/routine. Now if you have proof that he copied you then we're back to the same situation as the other examples and the Russ and Shawn situation!

As mentioned, I have no idea of the legal side of copying, but I do know that to gain respect you have to earn it! It would appear to me that egos and commercial gain come first to some magicians, while that may be OK for them in the short run, eventually they will be found out and all respect will be lost.

Gary Jones.
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dfield
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For those who want to talk about Copyright music do it elsewhere. That's NOT the point here - that's a different thread and can pretty much apply to 90% of magicians who use music. You are really missing the point of this thread.

This is about Tim's point in No. 1. A person saw a routine and liked it - took the concept, theme and the idea that made it a truly theatrical moment. We all agree Russ was doing this first, there is evidence in that respect with a TV performance and it appeared on his promo Tape in the early 90s.

Tim, the problem I have with FISM looking after this issue is because of the emotional ties members of committee have with Shawn. This is a high profile case due to the nature of the Gold Medal and the amount of publicity that has come Shawn's way with this routine. In the real world a jury would have no ties to either parties involved. This would NOT be the case here. You yourself Tim have made your stand on this issue quite clear in various forums and so I would assume you would not be on the FISM committee making a decision in this issue.

I, like others are saying now, made conclusions based on the facts that were presented - also, to be honest the recent outburst or what friends are now called Shawn's Charlie Sheen moment, during that interview have really not helped his case at all - actually they made my own conclusion even stronger. I think this quote by Mark Twain is very apt for that interview - it speaks volumes about Shawn's detailed and rather over the top answer:-
"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. ~Mark Twain
Donal Chayce
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Quote:
On 2011-04-06 17:53, dfield wrote:
For those who want to talk about Copyright music do it elsewhere. That's NOT the point here - that's a different thread and can pretty much apply to 90% of magicians who use music. You are really missing the point of this thread.

While I understand your point about moving a discussion of the use (and abuse) of copyrighted music in magic performances to a separate thread, I'm afraid your point that it "can pretty much apply to 90% of magicians who use music" escapes me. If I open a separate thread, would you be willing to elaborate on or otherwise clarify that statement?
Quote:
On 2011-04-06 00:42, russ stevens wrote:
Hello msmaster and Donal Chayce,

Of course, I am sure that Shawn Farquhar, like myself has always had PRS music rights and licenses covered by TV companies and venues wherever we have worked. I've done that routine twice on television over the years and both times were for the BBC in the UK and of course rights and licenses were paid.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Russ

Thanks for addressing the question, Russ. A couple of follow-ups, if I may: Were those two TV appearances the only time you've performed the routine in question? If not, can you tell us if the proper music licenses were in place in connection with the other times you've performed the routine (for example, live performances)?
gjmagic
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Quote:
On 2011-04-06 17:53, dfield wrote:

"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. ~Mark Twain


And if you lie, don't do it on video or in an email. ~Common Sense

Gary Jones.
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Hello dfield,

You raise an interesting point regarding FISM and Shawn Farquhar's win. Throughout this whole thing, you will see from here and on other threads, that I've stuck 100% to my side of things. Nearing the end of the last thread just after FISM in China, I personally contacted Eric Eswin and told him that as far as I was concerned this wasn't a FISM matter, as the award was not important to me. What was important is that people knew the truth, which I finally feel most (unbiased) people do, especially after his interview with all of it's lies and mistakes. Again, I've asked a few times for an answer as to why on a basic level did he lie, multiple times, when asked why I did what I did? He knew my problem (the promo that he saw in 1994) and yet chose to give nonsense answers about jealousy etc (which I can promise you couldn't be further from the truth). On that basic level none of his supporters can possibly say he was being honest and truthful during that interview. Whilst I admire their loyalty, I personally can't understand why they choose to keep supporting him.

Best,
Russ
dfield
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Donal - happy to explain in a thread on copyright music as we both realize it's nothing to do with this thread but is something that should be talked about. I don't know if any magic magazines have tackled that issue but would make a good article.

Russ - I really feel for you. I have a very dear friend in New York who has been a professional magician most of his life. He's very much under the radar as far as the magic community is concerned, but he continues to be one of the busiest corporate magicians I know. It's such a shame that my friend feels he can't let his peers and others in the magic community see his work for fear of others ripping him off. I would imagine this is the reason many full time professionals don't belong to magic clubs - also the reason you see the same 'magic stars' appearing at magic conventions over and over. Most of these guys 'sell' their act and their effects so they are happy to be in the 'magic community world'. Shawn himself is now appearing at conventions, lectures and selling magic tricks so this will also probably partly answer your question why he has those still supporting him.
From your response to other threads I understand Russ you also kept a low profile due more to the fact you're obviously a working magician and too busy to attend conventions. It's because of what has happened to you that magicians like myself miss out on seeing other great acts from around the world and this is what really upsets me. This is something that affects the entire magic community.
mantel
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This recent turn of events reminds me of a time in 2007 when some Ellusionist kiddies posted their own versions of the Shape of My Heart to youtube. Eventually, Shawn found out which lead to the removal of the offending videos and this in the video link's place; "LINK REMOVED AT THE REQUEST OF THE ROUTINE CREATOR"
It also lead to the following post:

Quote:
Goudinov wrote:
I heard back from Shawn Farquhar. He has not released this routine to be performed by anyone else. No one but Shawn has the rights to this intellectual property.

We at Ellusionist do not endorse the reverse-engineering of routines or effects to be performed without the express permission of the creator if applicable through either direct contact, through the purchase of published materials, or any other manner in which the creator gives consent.

Shawn worked very long and hard on this routine and has performed it around the world. Other magicians should not use it until such time that Shawn decides to release this to the magic community for other magicians to perform professionally or otherwise.

This is the message I received from Shawn Farquhar
Hi Goudinov,

Thanks for your email. I was actualy just looking at that forum last evening and was surprised to see your company was permiting and endorsing the theft of my intelectual property. Several people have reverse engineered my rotuine...others have been "inspired" to create similar routines. I am in discussions with U-Tube to edit and remove several submissions.

Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Shawn Farquhar


<a href="http://forums.ellusionist.com/showthread.php?71173-Shape-of-My-Heart">Shape-of-My-Heart</a>

Of course this led to the Ellusionist kiddies complaining of how that they didn't understand the "Shape of My Heart" routine was Shawn's intellectual property.

Quote:
Goudinov wrote:
Shawn created the routine. He created the idea of the routine. He planned out every single possible move. He spent more hours than any of you perfecting the routine. He has performed the routine all over the world.

He is KNOWN for that routine. It's HIS trademark.

Someone else sees it, and says "I like it, I'm going to do that too".
You stole his baby.

Any respectable magician will respect that. It's funny watching kids try and justify doing the wrong thing.

PMs to me about this will go unanswered. Thread closed.


<a href="http://forums.ellusionist.com/showthread.php?74352-gt-gt-Intellectual-Property">Intellectual-Property</a>

Then in April of last year another Ellusionist kiddie posts another Shape of My Heart video and for some reason it doesn't get removed. But someone does mention that Shawn doesn't like magicians infringing on "his" intellectual property. Fast forward to July Cyril Takayama does a card manipulation version of "Shape of My Heart at the Essential Magic Conference.
Tony Curtis
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The thread is getting derailed yet again so please can we keep it going just for the Russ Stevens & Shawn Farquhar discussion.

Tony Curtis
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