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natmagic
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How to tell if somebody is telling lies.

Study shows that there’s no foolproof way to tell if someone is lying, but there are some behaviors to watch for:

Avoiding eye contact. Is the person looking down or away?
Change in voice tone. Is the person speaking in a higher or lower pitch than usual or speaking faster?
Body language. Is the person turning away, covering the mouth or face, or fidgeting?
Contradicting what was said earlier. Is the person saying something when he or she said something different earlier?

ALL of the above applies to Shawn Farquhar in that recent interview in Reel Magic. His voice changed, his eyes were all over the place, his body language certainly was erratic (hands tapping etc) and obviously his story was different than what he has told before.

For all we know, Shawn could suffer from Mythomania - if this is the case (and I don't know if it is) it might explain his recent interview.

Again, I can only feel for Russ and yes he has every right to continue to speak out.
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One more thing. Tim mentions in his last post:

'I'll give Russ credit for being honest in telling his side of the story because he is able to back it up with hard facts'.

And finishes by saying:

'But unless some hard facts surface everything else is just hearsay and opinion'.

A contradiction in terms isn't it?

Best,
Russ
Whit Haydn
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Excuse me, Russ, and Shawn.

I have a hard time with this issue. I have always used original music created for me in my show. I don't understand how choosing a song made by someone else to illustrate or backup a magic piece gives you any exclusive rights to the use of the song even if you were the first.

Gee, the first person to use the "Saber Dance" with the sub trunk sure has some complaints...

Anyone can use any music that they buy the rights to anyway that they want according to the license. If a movie uses a Dylan song as background, and does not pay for "exclusive rights" for a movie score, does that mean no other movie can buy the rights to that song?

I think that it is just silly to fight over the use of material that wasn't created by either artist.

Ask Sting which performer he thinks should have the rights to use his song. His agent will reply "as many as want to pay him."

Who are either of you guys to limit how much money Sting can make off HIS "original creation?"

Unless someone has bought "exclusive" rights to the song, then they should stay out of the way of the creator making money from his own work.

No performer has the right to limit what Sting can make off licensing his OWN song.

Exclusive rights would be hugely expensive.

If neither think that is worth paying, then both of you should shut up, regardless of your respective cases and stories.

Neither should try to inhibit Sting from selling his song to another magician.

This seems very obvious to me.

The argument between you two itself is an inteference with Sting's rights of commerce.

It casts a pall of ethical indecision on any other performers who might want to license Sting's work.

Neither of you has recompensed Sting enough to hold an exclusive license to his song.

To try to keep Sting from selling those rights to another performer is just wrong.

I am not even sure that it isn't actionable. I would love to hear a lawyer's point of view on that.

If you want to "own" someone else's work, you must pay for it.

Just being the first to pay to use it doesn't give you any ownership.
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 02:30, russ stevens wrote:
One more thing. Tim mentions in his last post:

'I'll give Russ credit for being honest in telling his side of the story because he is able to back it up with hard facts'.

And finishes by saying:

'But unless some hard facts surface everything else is just hearsay and opinion'.


A contradiction in terms isn't it?

Best,
Russ



No offense Russ, but that's not a contradiction at all.

Your side of the story - all the info you've told regarding your SHAPE OF MY HEART is backed up by facts.

The Shawn vs Reg stories - neither are factual, just opinions and hearsay. Just like the last couple of posts in this thread. When people say "Shawn looks like he's lying" that is an opinion, not a fact.

For example. If someone came up to you tomorrow and told you they KNOW that Makha Tendo told Cyril all about your act and he copied it, you could decide to believe them, or not, but I'd hope your decision would be based on facts and not just what they tell you. They may have an axe to grind with Cyril and want to use you to bring his reputation down. Until some solid evidence is produced, there would be really no way you could tell if Cyril copied your idea of performing to that song or not.
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Dear Whit Hayden,

Wow! Can you please at least take the time out to actually read what this thread is about. This isn't about Shawn Farquhar or myself claiming the rights to a piece of music, but about someone seeing my routine, taking the idea and then lying about it for several years. It's not about the music, but the lie. Next time you want to contribute, please take the trouble to find out what the issue being discussed is actually about and you'll save yourself a lot of time and effort. Several people have tried to derail this thread already using this ruse.

Ok Tim. Here we go. Shawn is lying throughout that interview when asked why I did what I did . That is a fact and you know it. You're yet to address even that situation, although I've asked several times. This is not an opinion, but a fact. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this situation alone. You can't of course answer for Shawn Farquhar, but you can at least confirm that his answers to that question alone were lies. Not his opinions, but lies. Please confirm.

Best,
Russ
gjmagic
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[quote]
The Shawn vs Reg stories - neither are factual, just opinions and hearsay. Just like the last couple of posts in this thread. When people say "Shawn looks like he's lying" that is an opinion, not a fact.
[quote]
Sorry Tim but having a witness to the fact is not 'just opinions and hearsay,' it's a fact! To say that Reg Donnelly's account of what happened back then is hearsay is to say that Reg Donnelly is lying, please state how you know that Reg Donnelly is lying.
As for the 'Shawn looks like he's lying" assumption, yes that is an opinion, not a fact' but from a psychological standpoint all the signs of lying are there, but on its own this could be just hearsay and opinion, it's only when you put the whole picture together do you have the facts!

Quote:


For example. If someone came up to you tomorrow and told you they KNOW that Makha Tendo told Cyril all about your act and he copied it, you could decide to believe them, or not, but I'd hope your decision would be based on facts and not just what they tell you. They may have an axe to grind with Cyril and want to use you to bring his reputation down. Until some solid evidence is produced, there would be really no way you could tell if Cyril copied your idea of performing to that song or not.


This too is flawed, the difference between the two is, Reg Donnelly is a witness to the fact, period. The only real way to know if Cyril copied Russ Stevens is if Cyril were to say so, as the most reliable witness (Makha Tendo) is sadly no longer with us!

Gary Jones.
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Tim Ellis
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GJ: You ask how I know Reg is lying. I don't. Just as you don't know if Shawn is lying. That's exactly my point.

The Cyril story because it involves a third party coming forward and saying they were there. Maybe they were with Makha when he spoke with Cyril about the act (for example). Then it would be his word against Cyril's word (for example).

As I said in my earlier post, there are really only two possibilities: Reg is lying or Shawn is lying. It's word against word.

I'm not taking either side I'm simply trying to apply that old adage that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
gjmagic
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It's not quite like that Tim, the dispute is between Shawn and Russ, both have stated their stories, Russ has a witness to back his story, there lies the difference.

The other major difference is, Russ has stuck to his story throughout, Shawn has changed his.

I would really like Russ and Shawn to get this sorted, this can only be achieved when the truth is known and the facts are gathered, for me the facts are very clear.

Gary Jones.
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Tim Ellis
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Not sure which parts of the interview you're talking about.

In the first sequence, if that's what you're referring to, it looks like we're coming in on an ongoing conversation:

"...prior to FISM there was none of this sort of thing going on until FISM happened."

Shawn was asked:

"What could be their motivation? Is it jealousy?"

I haven't seen the full interview, but it seems clear that they are talking about the slew of attacks Shawn received on the internet, most of which came from two web blogs and were extremely vicious. Shawn specifically speaks about one of the blogs in his answer to the interviewer.

So in that section, I don't believe they are talking about you at all.

In the last section of the interview you've posted, the interviewer asks directly:

"Any idea what the motivation may have been?"

Shawn says:

"I totally understand where's he's coming from...but maybe I think he feels that he's losing part of who he was because of the influence of the Grand Prix. When it was a silver, maybe it wasn't as bad of an effect to him and so he just kind of went... whatever. And when it became the Grand Prix he went Oh no and did a knee jerk reaction that became this huge thing."

Is this the answer that you feel is a lie, or are there others I have missed? Because honestly, with the use of the words "I think he feels..." it does look like he's expressing an opinion to me.

I think, and I have to guess at what you're saying is a lie, that you feel his statement that it was alright when it was the silver but not when it was the gold - that was the lie... right?

So should he have said "Because in March 2009 Reg Donnelly told him that I had seen his tape back in 1994 and was influenced by it."

From the outset Shawn has said "I had never seen Russ perform his routine until years after I had established a reputation with mine and was confronted by a number of British magicians who accused me of stealing Russ's routine following my performance at FFFF in New York. They in fact said the routine was identical and that I was a thief."

So all I can assume is that Shawn simply cannot accept the Reg Donnelly story as true.

Shawn has said: "Perhaps Reg is mistaken? I can't be the only magician he traded videos with at the time. Perhaps he is thinking of Matt Ridley who was an avid collector of magic videos and a great dove act. Reg and I are not friends, but we aren't adversaries either. He travels in a circle of magicians who for the most part do not like me, but I can't imaging his post was made with malice intent."

So, in summary, perhaps you are right. Maybe Shawn was lying when he gave his opinion as to why you did what you did.

Does it prove anything? I don't think so. Does it establish Shawn as a liar? You say he was "lying throughout the interview when asked why I did what I did" but I don't think that's true either. Other than the 1994 instead of 1995... I can't see any other instance of this.

I do understand the point of this whole thing is to try to establish who is lying and who is telling the truth though.

If we could hear from Reg Donnelly, or maybe even Matt Ridley, that would be more helpful.

Again Russ, please don't take any offense from what I'm writing here. You asked what I thought and I'm trying to wade through the muddy waters to explain it as best I can.

Quote:
On 2011-04-09 05:14, gjmagic wrote:
It's not quite like that Tim, the dispute is between Shawn and Russ, both have stated their stories, Russ has a witness to back his story, there lies the difference.

The other major difference is, Russ has stuck to his story throughout, Shawn has changed his.

I would really like Russ and Shawn to get this sorted, this can only be achieved when the truth is known and the facts are gathered, for me the facts are very clear.

Gary Jones.

Other than the date (1994/1995) what exactly has he changed?

(Not challenging you here Gary, I genuinely don't know)
gjmagic
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I also think Tim that all those despicable emails you received (you mentioned in an earlier post) were totally out of order, I also believe Shawn too had to put up with this. Whatever the outcome is in this situation no-one deserves that type of abuse. So far this debate has been conducted in a very civilised and professional manner,

Gary Jones.

Posted: Apr 9, 2011 5:53am
Quote:
On 2011-04-09 05:37, Tim Ellis wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-04-09 05:14, gjmagic wrote:
It's not quite like that Tim, the dispute is between Shawn and Russ, both have stated their stories, Russ has a witness to back his story, there lies the difference.

The other major difference is, Russ has stuck to his story throughout, Shawn has changed his.

I would really like Russ and Shawn to get this sorted, this can only be achieved when the truth is known and the facts are gathered, for me the facts are very clear.

Gary Jones.

Other than the date (1994/1995) what exactly has he changed?

(Not challenging you here Gary, I genuinely don't know)

It's fine Tim, I don't mind you asking. Shawn's story about the dates are very relevant, and the bit about the subtitles. I just find it very strange that Shawn remembered everything very clearly about watching the film Leon, the popcorn, the interval, turning off the subtitles (?), so why would he make a mistake about the date!

You have to be consistent and have a great memory if you tell a lie, when you tell the truth you don't need to fabricate any of the details, it's only when you lie do the patterns change.

Gary Jones.
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So it's just the date?
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On 2011-04-09 06:07, Tim Ellis wrote:
So it's just the date?


No not just the date Tim, also the subtitles and the Reg Donnelly witness account. I could also mention all the psychological aspects, but we're just sticking to the facts. What you're trying to say Tim is that Shawn was led by the interviewer to say 1994? This I find odd, especially when Shawn was so precise with all the other details!

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No, I'm not trying to say anything.

You said "The other major difference is, Russ has stuck to his story throughout, Shawn has changed his."

I just asked you "Other than the date (1994/1995) what exactly has he changed?"

You mention the subtitles, I have heard that story previously so it's not a change that I'm aware of.

(I always assumed he was referring to 'Closed Captioning' which was on the VHS of Leon in 1995 http://www.amazon.com/Professional-VHS-J......8&sr=1-1 and, since 1990, all televisions have been required to have closed captioning display capability.)

I certainly agree that the date was wrong in the Reel Magic interview, but that could have been an honest mistake just as easily as it could have been a deliberate attempt to rewrite history. (Though why lie, when it would be so easy to disprove?)

The Reg Donnelly account hasn't caused Shawn to change his story either.

So other than the date, I honestly don't know what other changes you are saying that Shawn has made to his story.
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I'm sorry Tim but this is going around in circles, Shawn changed the date, period, Shawn said subtitles, period, Reg Donnelly gave a witness statement, period.

The above are the facts, Reg came on here and made his statement, Shawn gave his account/s on here and in an interview on Reel Magic, fact.

I'm dealing with the facts, you're dealing with assumptions!

Gary Jones.
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Tim Ellis
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Okay, so in answer to my question, Shawn changed the date from '1995' to '1994' and said 'subtitles' instead of 'closed captions'.

Can you post a link to Reg's statement, I can't find it with this new Magic Café Search.

"I'm dealing with the facts, you're dealing with assumptions!

Gary Jones."


You may be right. I am assuming that Shawn is innocent until proven guilty.

You're well within your rights to assume otherwise, but I still feel the current state of play is Shawn's word against Reg's word.
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Fair enough Tim.

Regards,

Gary Jones.
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Fair enough Tim.

Regards,

Gary Jones.
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Tony Curtis
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 08:11, Tim Ellis wrote:
Okay, so in answer to my question, Shawn changed the date from '1995' to '1994' and said 'subtitles' instead of 'closed captions'.

It’s quite amazing that we are expected to believe all this.

Tony Curtis
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What difference does any of this make? You are both squabling over nothing. Unless you purchased exclusive rights to Sting's music, then anyone can use it, anyway they want, if they pay Sting.

If an ice skater used the song first, would they have a right to object to a magician using it?

Neither of you has any more right to the use of the song in a magic trick, regardless of who came up with the idea first. If you want to have exclusive use to the music, buy it.

To suggest that someone else is doing something wrong and unethical by buying someone else's product looks like dangerous legal waters to me, both in interference with commerce and libel. The mere act of claiming some kind of proprietary rights over someone elses' work may be actionable. This is not just a "who says" thing about lying. The sort of claims being made in the process are very off-base.

I read the whole thread, Russ. You don't have any claim to Sting's music. Anyone in magic can use it. Doesn't matter who used it first. The whole concept of using another artist's work and then claiming possession is wrong. You buy Sting's music. You must buy exclusive rights as well. It seems to me that anyone who wants to try to make a better music video out of it, or magic trick out of it, if they pay for the use have the right to try. You should not have any complaint no matter how many other magicians decide to use that piece.
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Hello Whit,

For once I am at a loss for words. I think you are reading a different thread.

Best,
Russ
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