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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Joey's Video Vault (9 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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AMcD
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Cag, I'm 100% with you on that one, no one owns a move! Main reason being there is no way to know whether you are the first one to devise it or not.

I'm just talking about correct crediting or referencing which, for me, is very important.
Cagliostro
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Quote:
On Mar 5, 2014, AMcD wrote:

I'm just talking about correct crediting or referencing which, for me, is very important.

Well, maybe in the magician community that is the norm. I'm not in that group but have no problem with that concept. But it is not that way with hustlers.
AMcD
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I'm not a Magician either, but I write books. Correct references and credits are important. At least, to me.
silverking
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Arnold, my point (perhaps poorly made) is that two people who spend a sizable number of hours per day with a deck of playing cards in their hands will invariably and independantly "discover" the exact same move.
It's to be expected.
Magicians tend to fight and debate endlessly about it (see Lorayne and Green), but I'm not sure that outside of the magic world anybody even cares when it comes to cards, dice, and any other hustle or scam one comes up with.

I presume your reference to those who may have seen your move here and passed it on is a reference to Mr. Z and/or Jason, as you're aware that they're friends with Forte.
I suppose the thing to do (if it concerns you), is to ask them if they saw your move and then showed that move to Forte.
Their answer then becomes the answer, as this isn't a court of law, we all have to assume people are answering our questions honestly.

Beyond asking a question, and getting an answer, I'm not sure what the last couple of days of posts in this thread are actually about?
AMcD
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Silver,

Quote:
On Mar 5, 2014, silverking wrote:
[...] two people who spend a sizable number of hours per day with a deck of playing cards in their hands will invariably and independantly "discover" the exact same move.
It's to be expected. [...]


Absolutely! And as I said several times, cards exist for centuries. Who could know everything?

Quote:
[...] Magicians tend to fight and debate endlessly about it (see Lorayne and Green) [...]


I personally find those fights ridiculous. I understand it may be frustrating to be stolen, etc. but, as you may imply, it's just cards.

Quote:
I presume your reference to those who may have seen your move here and passed it on is a reference to Mr. Z and/or Jason, as you're aware that they're friends with Forte.


Don't presume anything. I have good contacts with everyone (but Steve Forte), I have no one to name or blame and, frankly, I don't care. In case, as I think, I'm the first one to have "demonstrated" that move, I would just have appreciated to be mentioned, nothing more. Not pride or anything else, just respect. Me, I like, respect and appreciate many people, Steve included. All people knowing me or having read my material (and Steve has my 2 first booklets for instance) know I can spend months just to find an exact reference! I'd just like others to do the same (more especially when I'm not very difficult to find Smile). I don't see what could be wrong with it.

The "essence" of the last posts is just to show that nobody's perfect. I don't know if Joey invented the controls we are talking about, only him can tell.
JasonEngland
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The vast majority of the moves on 52 came from notes Steve made in the 1980s. I've seen the notes and I can't decipher a single word of them! Steve can read them, but only because he knows what they mean. So if a note says, "Bottom stock control from JP" then he knows that is referring to a move Jimmy Payne showed him 30 years ago. He realized that even he was in danger of forgetting what some of his notes meant so he set about filming them. That footage is what eventually became 52.

This means that the vast majority of those moves can be traced to specific friends of his that shared these ideas with him over a period of many decades. Most, if not all of these people are long gone now. Steve would be the first to tell you that he didn't invent many of the moves in 52, only adjusted them for his hands and the way he handles cards.

Jason

PS: The bottom stock control that Joey has re-invented doesn't belong to Steve. It was shown to him by Jackie Newton in the 1980s. Did JN "invent" it? Who knows. Perhaps. Or perhaps it was shown to him by some hustler who's name is lost to history.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
joeyfx
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Quote:
I don't know if Joey invented the controls we are talking about, only him can tell.

Then you just have to take my word for it. I came up with the method myself, just like any other move I released on the wire. I avoid the word "invented" because in my opinion that's a strange word to use when talking about cards. However, you can blame me for not spending any time researching for references. I admit that.
I posted two videos about the move in March 2013 -> saw that there was some interest in me making a tutorial -> I made a tutorial.
JasonEngland
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"Invention" can only happen once - so Joey clearly didn't invent that bottom stock control. I don't care if you toil under nothing but gas lamp and campfires and finally emerge from your basement laboratory after 20 years with a burning filament in a glass orb - you still didn't "invent" the lightbulb.

There are times when the moment of invention (and the inventor) are unclear and credit has to be shared, but this isn't one of those times.

I see nothing wrong with Joey teaching this move, as the closest thing to an original "inventor" is dead, but he shouldn't claim it as his own. And maybe he isn't. I haven't seen his Wire video.

Joey - what credits do you give on your video? If none, that's okay (up until now), but you should go back and edit your video to give proper credit to Jackie Newton.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
joeyfx
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Quote:
If none, that's okay (up until now), but you should go back and edit your video to give proper credit to Jackie Newton.

I wrote a disclaimer, crediting Steve Forte as the one who first demonstrated the move's on video and Jackie Newton as the person who first showed it to him. And the members of the Magic café (which posted in this thread) for pointing me in the right direction.

Thank you.
splice
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Quote:
On Mar 6, 2014, JasonEngland wrote:
PS: The bottom stock control that Joey has re-invented doesn't belong to Steve. It was shown to him by Jackie Newton in the 1980s. Did JN "invent" it? Who knows. Perhaps. Or perhaps it was shown to him by some hustler who's name is lost to history.


Thanks for the info, Jason.
Bobbycash
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Lots of great information, thanks for the reference.
tommy
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Very good Joey.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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Joey, I've been informed of some other credits regarding the move also, but I think that's an excellent addendum.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
kcg5
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Jason, are there any plans to release the "rest" of 52? All of his tapes? Maybe that website I had heard talk of?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
JasonEngland
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No real plans, but I'd love to do something along those lines.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
joeyfx
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Quote:
Joey, I've been informed of some other credits regarding the move also, but I think that's an excellent addendum.

If you don't mind, I'd love to hear them.
joeyfx
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New Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f56mZAo7HmY

A few small variations on the "Ping Pong Shift":

1. Shifting only the top slug of the deck, so that the bottom card changes

2. Normal shift.

3. Shift using a cut card.
Expertmagician
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Great video.... !
Thx !
Long Island,

New York
Bobbycash
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I like it Joey
Kimura
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Quote:
On Mar 7, 2014, JasonEngland wrote:
No real plans, but I'd love to do something along those lines.

Jason


Jason, roughly how much footage is involved? Are we talking hundreds of moves here?

Anyway, count me as interested in such a project
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