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bozo
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Horse ****! Take away You-Tube, videos, personal instruction from peers, what do you have left? Books. What do you do, quit magic? No, you learn from a book. Believe it or not, you will learn magic from the written word. Not only that, but after a while you will learn quickly from books. You will struggle, you will curse, you will throw the book across the room, but you will pick it up the next day and it will actually make sense. You will begin to think about presentation, alternative ways of accomplishing a particular method. Lordy be, you might even make up your own trick, based what you read.
By the way, Magic is not easy. The fact that it has become easy is why 90% of it sucks these days.
Jim Oliver
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Andrew,

You may be quite right, but I do believe that these young men do care about magic and do respect it.
However, I am only 52, not 80, but in my youth reading was all we had and I still love to read and study magic from books and here is why.

With a video you get to see how THAT person performs it, not how I am going to perform it. I don't want to be an imitator, I want my personality to come through in my performance. But if all I ever see is how somebody else performs it then I may not be able to get past that only point of reference.
If I read it in a book, without the person standing there, then I can put it into my mind a little bit better without having to filter out somebody's personality that isn't mine.

Also it's kind of like a book verses the movie based on that book. Ever see The Godfather?
Ever read the book? It's like comparing a Locomotive to a tricycle. You can't get all that subtle information out of the video.

But I do understand.

Jim
Ed Marlo rules
MickeyPainless
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Thank You for the Kyle's and Andrew's of the young magic world!

My first brick and mortar shop was Hollywood Magic (unfortunately no longer open) and the main shop help then were Newel "The Janitor" and Luis (who is still a friend and mentor) so I was blessed from the beginning but some of my last visits before they closed was greeted by those that Jim describes!

My 2nd to the last visit I came in with money in my pocket to buy high end coin gaffs and couldn't get help by the youngsters behind the counter doing the latest Buck moves (I've met and love the Twins) and stood unhelped at the end of the counter until Luis came back from lunch! He (Luis) commented to the "kids" that I was one of the Good Guys and that they should have helped me until he arrived and they responded with a shrug and who gives a **** attitude! I went one more time out of need of a prop but swore I'd never spend another dime again in that shop because of my experience!

It has become a sad state of affair but fortunately I know have (for several years) a friendship with Paul Gross of Hocus Pocus Magic in Fresno California and he is both knowledgeable and trustworthy so I spend my money there!

MMc
Jim Oliver
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Thanks Mickey,

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to experience this situation.

To Bozo: I couldn't agree with you more! Could you imagine being stuck on a desert
island with nothing but a DVD and a DVD player? You would be one screwed puppy.

Put me on that same island with a deck of cards and Marlo Without Tears, and I'm
good to go!

Jim
Ed Marlo rules
Harry Lorayne
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Interesting, Bozo - all through the decades, all my books - never, ever, heard of anyone having to throw it across the room (except perhaps AT someone)! Never heard anyone cursing over them either - except perhaps to think "Wow, that's **** good! And I can do the **** thing! ... HL.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
MickeyPainless
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Just give me a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book and I'd be fine! I admire Marlo's work but after the 27th version of the same move I become bored! Smile

MMc


Posted: Apr 9, 2011 5:07pm
-------------------------------------
FWIW, I had not read Harry's post prior to writing my last!

I just love and admire HL's work and hope to one day be able to do 20% of it with style and grace!

MMc
caruk
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 16:13, Tom Fenton wrote:
Jim,

Your story reminded me of a friend of mine who was learning guitar.
He was in his local bar and the barman asked him how he was progressing with the guitar.
He replied that he was having trouble with barr chords.

The fellow next to him at the bar asked what the exact problem was. Bob told him that he got fret buzz as he couldn't get his barring finger straight.
The fellow then gave him some advice about moving his elbow forward so that he changed the angle of his barring finger.

After the helpful man left, Bob asked the barman, "What does he know about guitar playing?"
The barman replied, "Probably more than you, that was Eric Clapton."


Touche.
bozo
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Give me a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book, and I can make you little house with a nice roof.
MickeyPainless
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Huh?
diehards2080
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 17:02, MickeyPainless wrote:
Just give me a brick of cards and a Harry Lorayne book and I'd be fine! I admire Marlo's work but after the 27th version of the same move I become bored! Smile

MMc


You know Mickey that was one of the things that I loved about Marlo. He had diffrent versions but I do admit it get a little dull.


Anyways back on topic it is sad that they wouldnt know who Marlo, Vernon, Slydini etc. But it just goes to show you how times are changing along with personal taste and knowledge. In the movie Zombieland the 12year old girl did not know who Bill Murray, Willy Nelson or Ghandi were. Sad things like this is true with todays youth.


Maybe its not their cup of tea, maybe its their lack of exposure to it. We know they are missing out because we know the value of the material. Maybe it should be brought to their attention when we come across them. And just maybe they want to juggle and color change with cards until the sun goes down. Who knows unless you talk to them.

Now the whole book reading thing. I'll just say todays youth should read just a bit more.

Just my opinion

Mike
rklew64
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Let's be honest here - there will always be 2 groups of magicians, the well versed group and the other is of the ignorant, lazy, delusional and ignorant again types.

You can never teach them to appreciate reading or basically put in the work to these young kids of today, because they were raised by helicopter parents that unfortunately have unleashed a whole generation of arrogant entitled stupid kids/teens/young adults onto the world. I won't even get into their work ethics or more like lack of it completely.
So forget about any clever subversive mini intervention ploys in hopes of them "getting it". They are already hardwired for complacency and apathy. At least more so than ever among the 15-25 year olds demographic. All that is why there are more hack disrespectful magicians out there visiting and working behind the counter.
Andrew Zuber
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The reason I can't believe the guys in that store truly respected and were passionate about magic is that I know tons of young people in magic, and they know who the greats are. The guys working in the shop may have been interested in magic, but how do you work in a magic shop and not know who Dai Vernon is? It's like a White House tour guide not knowing who the President is. Doesn't make sense to me.

I have learned from books, don't get me wrong. I've also studied acting and have been a performer since I was five years old, so it's never been an issue for me personally when it comes to presentation - I come up with my own. It's how I've always preferred to work. I'm the same way with the routines. I'll learn the basics and have a good foundation, but then I build upon it. I love the material in the books I have. Stars of Magic is brilliant. I read the Dai Vernon Book of Magic for fun sometimes. The Complete Works of Derek Dingle is another fantastic text. I've learned all kinds of things from these resources, and I'd never give them up...but I prefer learning by watching. It's merely a personal preference and something that comes easier to me.

I love magic, but if I'm ever stranded on an island with nothing but a DVD player, I think I'm gonna have bigger worries than remembering the sequence to the three ball transposition Smile
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
alibaba
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Book? What means this word? Why everyone say Book? Book, book, book, all the time book. If you're talking about those pre-downloaded and printed-out paper things with letters all over them, me say, what good is book when you got dvd's, television and beer?
I'm as real as you think I am
diehards2080
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 18:39, rklew64 wrote:
Let's be honest here - there will always be 2 groups of magicians, the well versed group and the other is of the ignorant, lazy, delusional and ignorant again types.

You can never teach them to appreciate reading or basically put in the work to these young kids of today, because they were raised by helicopter parents that unfortunately have unleashed a whole generation of arrogant entitled stupid kids/teens/young adults onto the world. I won't even get into their work ethics or more like lack of it completely.
So forget about any clever subversive mini intervention ploys in hopes of them "getting it". They are already hardwired for complacency and apathy. At least more so than ever among the 15-25 year olds demographic. All that is why there are more hack disrespectful magicians out there visiting and working behind the counter.

I deal with entitled arrogant people all day. Most I want to bash in the face honestly. I do agree the work ethics of today youth is horrible and they feel entitled and owed by all they feel is less than them. No argument there

But I don't think of every single one of them to be pure ********. You could tend to tell who you shouldn't bother and prob smash in the face and who you could talk too. I don't try any intervention ploys I just ask.

Quote:
On 2011-04-09 18:49, Andrew Zuber wrote:
The reason I can't believe the guys in that store truly respected and were passionate about magic is that I know TONS of young people in magic, and they know who the greats are. The guys working in the shop may have been interested in magic, but how do you work in a magic shop and not know who Dai Vernon is? It's like a White House tour guide not knowing who the President is. Doesn't make sense to me.

It use to be to work places that you familiarize yourself with the products and/or learn some history about what your in. It doesn't look like they follow that practice anymore.

I remember I walked into a magic shop here in Queens, NY asking for some Darwin Ortiz material and the person did not know who the hell he was. I found that really shocking. I just turned and walked out.
Alan Munro
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 16:25, bozo wrote:
Horse ****! Take away You-Tube, videos, personal instruction from peers, what do you have left? Books. What do you do, quit magic? No, you learn from a book. Believe it or not, you will learn magic from the written word. Not only that, but after a while you will learn quickly from books. You will struggle, you will curse, you will throw the book across the room, but you will pick it up the next day and it will actually make sense. You will begin to think about presentation, alternative ways of accomplishing a particular method. Lordy be, you might even make up your own trick, based what you read.
By the way, Magic is not easy. The fact that it has become easy is why 90% of it sucks these days.

Exactly! If you want to have original thoughts, turn off the $@&#ed music, computer and TV and allow yourself to actually let a thought hit you. You can't really create without silence.

Sure, I believe that DVDs have a place, but much of my repertoire came from experimenting with what I learned from a book. Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it and many of the new generation lack the observational skills to realize that they're making some major mistakes, that are obvious to the educated magician.


Posted: Apr 9, 2011 8:02pm
-------------------------------------
Part of the reason that some magic shops died is because the owner didn't require the clerks to study. Many major corporations pay for training for their employees - a magic shop should at least have a bibliography for the clerks to get busy on. If a brick and mortar shop wants to get the upper hand on the big internet shops, require your clerks to become students of the art.
caruk
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 18:51, alibaba wrote:
Book? What means this word? Why everyone say Book? Book, book, book, all the time book. If you're talking about those pre-downloaded and printed-out paper things with letters all over them, me say, what good is book when you got dvd's, television and beer?


Ok. That's funny. Thanks for making me laugh alibaba.
Jim Oliver
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Andrew,

I couldn't believe it either! I really couldn't!

When I was about 17 I had a job at a famous hot dog stand that had a DER in front of it's name.

We had to go through training classes and had to learn some history about the place and other things like that. If you didn't, you simply did not work there.

If your a magician and want to work in a magic shop, should you not know something about 3 or 4 of the greatest magicians ever?

If someone comes into the shop and asks a question about a particular book, you should be able to give them some sort of an intelligent answer, right? Not this uuugh, who's that?

Now, I must also say that if I worked in a magic shop and did not know who D & D, or the Buck twins were, (because I really don't) then guess what? I ask the boss man to clue me in so I don't make his shop look bad when someone comes in and needs our help.

If your going to be in the business, know the business!

Jim

P. S. My daughter is a graphic artist. When she was in school they made her take a lot of art history classes. You know, study the masters. Yes it drove her nuts, but it's part of the business.
Magicians are artists. They should know the history of their art!!!
Ed Marlo rules
caruk
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 15:50, Andrew Zuber wrote:
I love having the books because they're great resources, and I enjoy my collection. It's great when someone says, "Oh, it's in Tarbell on page 37." I have it right at my fingertips. I also love to read in general - a good book will keep you engrossed for hours.

That said, I HATE learning routines in writing. It is very rare that I can fully make sense of something that's written. Throw in all the pictures and descriptions you want - I'm a visual learner. I want to see it performed, see the move explained, and watch someone do it. It's just how my mind works. I also struggle because even though I'm right handed, I perform backwards to what most descriptions state. If it says "hold the ball with your right hand" I'm probably holding it with the left. I've always been that way, so a description can be confusing because every time I see left/right, in my mind I have to reverse that. On video, it's easier for me to make that change.



Good point.
Learning by word is more challenging than learning it visually.
However, unless you are watching someone merely executing a sleight without patter or other influence, you will begin to imitate their persona. Choose your DVD's well.
Turk
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I started out in magic before the age of magic on videos. As a result, I began learning magic mainly through books. Unfortunately, I am a very literal person by training and, as a result, I sometimes found reading magic instructional books to be very frustrating because of bad grammar and poorly written sentences...particularly those with misplaced modifiers and imprecise instructions. (That said, I have a lot of sympathy for magic book writers...particularly in trying to describe complicated moves. (To appreciate the difficulty in this regard, try writing a simple set of instructions describing how to tie your shoe laces.)

When videos came out I was astounded at what I learned and the value of witnessing actual performances. After watching a magic video, I found that a lot of the moves being described in a book became clear(er) to me. In addition, I was able to witness timing, misdirection, and, watching the actual moves being performed confirmed in my mind that "Yes, that move actually does work and flies right by the audience". As a result, the magic I was reading in the books came alive and my confidence (that I too could perform and deceive audiences) grew.

To me, it is not a question of books versus videos. To me, they are complementary to each other and each has its place.

Mike
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This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
MaxfieldsMagic
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Quote:
On 2011-04-09 22:04, Turk wrote:
Unfortunately, I am a very literal person by training and, as a result, I sometimes found reading magic instructional books to be very frustrating because of bad grammar and poorly written sentences...particularly those with misplaced modifiers and imprecise instructions. (That said, I have a lot of sympathy for magic book writers...particularly in trying to describe complicated moves. (To appreciate the difficulty in this regard, try writing a simple set of instructions describing how to tie your shoe laces.)



Good analogy with the shoelace thing. And I think I've read some of those same books. You want to whip out the red pen, mark them up and send them back to the publisher. What's really annoying is when a book makes it to the second or third edition and still has mistakes in it. No excuse for that. By contrast, a well-written book is something to be savored.

The current generational bookphobia extends much farther than the magic world. Just this morning, my 16 year old stepdaughter told me she's researching a paper on back problems in horses. I asked whether she'd used any published print sources, or just the Internet. Guess what the answer was. I even offered to drive her to the library, but she looked at me like I had two heads. I'm betting her teacher would fall out of her chair if she ever reviewed a paper without a single wikisomething in the bibliography.
Now appearing nightly in my basement.
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