The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Finger/stage manipulation » » Card Manipulation Question (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
Tony Thomas
View Profile
Inner circle
North Carolina
1239 Posts

Profile of Tony Thomas
I'm working through the McBride DVD's Related to Card Manipulation. My goal is to be able to do a routine like... Tony Clark's Award Winning Card Routine (if you are familiar with that). I'm trying to decide if I should focus my practice with a particular style of cards. To this point I have practiced the most with Bee Cards. I also have a Peter Marvey Manipulation Deck and a Neilson Manipulation Deck. Tony Clark uses a Neilson Manipulation Deck in his routine. My preference is the Bee Deck. But when all is said and done, will I need to be able to back palm more cards than is possible with a regular Bee Deck? If the answer is yes, I think I would rather practice now using the specialized manipulation cards (and buy a few more of these decks as well). What advice do you card manipulators have for me, especially related to card styles - for my level of skill?
From the Encouraging Magic of...

Tony Thomas

www.magictonythomas.com
cardone
View Profile
Special user
852 Posts

Profile of cardone
Bee is the way to go ...no powder ..just break them in. Cheaper and easy to find than manip cards. If you get used to powder and manip cards you are stuck with them. I now can break in Bee cards for manip in about 20 mins. I am glad I started with Bee.
Tony Thomas
View Profile
Inner circle
North Carolina
1239 Posts

Profile of Tony Thomas
Being stuck with having to use expensive manipulation cards was exactly my concern. I appreciate the guidance. About how many Bee Cards can a person expect to be able to back palm? I'm curious what would be considered realistic? This will help me construct a routine within the correct parameters.

Also, how important do you feel the flesh colored edges are? Another thought was McBride's Deck, which is normal except for the color on the back.
From the Encouraging Magic of...

Tony Thomas

www.magictonythomas.com
seadog93
View Profile
Inner circle
3198 Posts

Profile of seadog93
I don't like manipulation cards. I got a deck one time (an expensive one, highly recommended) and I couldn't do anything with it. Seriously, I couldn't even do normal single productions!
To make it worse, they were bridge size, which I hate.

I use poker size bicycles. I don't break them in much (a few springs and pressure fans) and I can do my routine. If I wanted to do a routine using more cards I would probably get Bee's and break them in the way Arthur Buckley recommends (also shown in McBride's DVDs). But remember that you could use clips and other loads, so you might not have to use a palming deck.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22177 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
If you insist on using standard bee poker cards, then you will have to perform more un-detected steals of card loads. Tony Clark sells his card clip and there are others on the market as well. Or you could just make one from a butterfly clip and safety pin.

You might consider the poker manipulation cards from http://www.seomagic-usa.com/catalog/prod......s_id/146 which would allow more cards to be handled at one time.

Of course I do not agree with the selection of standard cards for manipulation. I look at the professionals like Norm Nielsen, Tony Clark, Lance Burton, and others that are performing professionally, they chose bridge manipulation cards. Of course in Arthur Buckley day they did not have manipulation cards, just like they did not have computers. Why use a computer when pen and paper works just as well and is cheaper. Join the 21st Century or stay in the past, it your choice in the end.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
seadog93
View Profile
Inner circle
3198 Posts

Profile of seadog93
Quote:
On 2011-04-09 23:45, wmhegbli wrote:
I look at the professionals like Norm Nielsen, Tony Clark, Lance Burton, and others that are performing professionally, they chose bridge manipulation cards.


I think that's a good point, obviously I'm not going to say they're wrong. I can't imagine an audience member having a problem with bridge size manip cards, I just personally don't like them.

Jeff McBride uses unprepared poker size playing cards, so I think there are pros on both sides.
My routine (which is mostly a combination of Rocco's and David Stones) uses about 3/4 of a deck of cards.
"Love is the magician who pulls man out of his own hat" - Ben Hecht

"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing'. Between the two, my life flows." -Nisargadatta Maharaj

Seadog=C-Dawg=C.ou.rtn.ey Kol.b
Ron Reid
View Profile
Inner circle
Phoenix, Arizona
2733 Posts

Profile of Ron Reid
Hello Tony:

I agree that manipulation cards such as Norm Nielsen's are the way to go. Just buy the regular, untreated cards from him and powder them by putting the cards in a paper bag a squirting in some fanning powder. Then, shake the bag for a minute or so to get the powder on the cards. This method has been used by many pros for many years.

Most important is to use a card press when storing the cards. The card press will keep them in good shape for a long time and your fans will look nicer. Without the card press, the cards will look ragged and beat up very quickly. I believe you can still buy a card press from Norm Nielsen.

Ron
Anatole
View Profile
Inner circle
1799 Posts

Profile of Anatole
I think the definitive discussion of types of card to use for card manipulation is the one provided by Lewis Ganson in Section 10 of _Routined Manipulation Finale_ in Chapter 30: "The Preparation of Cards for Manipulation." Ganson provides three methods for preparing cards for manipulation. Section 10 is, BTW, also available reprinted in the separate Ganson monograph _Card Magic by Manipulation_. Poker-sized cards are also somewhat more pliable than bridge-sized cards just by virtue of the fact that they are wider.
----- Sonny Narvaez
Fábio DeRose
View Profile
Inner circle
San Paolo, Brasile
1477 Posts

Profile of Fábio DeRose
I can backpalm up to 30 Bee cards on my right hand. That doesn't necessarily mean I NEED to do so.

There is a subtlety when it comes to Manipullation, which goesfar beyong the "less is more" old saying. It is about ho well do you handle the cards you have in a way you won't need an enormous amount of palmed cards or, even worse, worrying about the need of body loads.
Fábio De'Rose - Ilusionista
www.ENIGMAGICO.com.br

Twitter @Enigmagico
hugmagic
View Profile
Inner circle
7353 Posts

Profile of hugmagic
I know guys that have used Bees for year with great success. True you can palm more of the manipulation cards than regular cards.

I also know that some guys use both. They use the regular cards for fanning and then discard them and start doing split fans with manipulation cards.

I have always felt that regular cards give more of a snap when produced. But that is a personal preference thing and I have never really worked all that much with cards.

I would also add that you can often get the Casino cut out decks two for dollar. That could also be a factor. I have seen too many guys rumanging through the sweepups on a stage to find their manipulation cards.

Richard
Richard E. Hughes, Hughes Magic Inc., 352 N. Prospect St., Ravenna, OH 44266 (330)296-4023
www.hughesmagic.com
email-hugmagic@raex.com
Write direct as I will be turning off my PM's.
Tony Thomas
View Profile
Inner circle
North Carolina
1239 Posts

Profile of Tony Thomas
Thanks for all the good feedback. I think at my level of learning, I will focus on the Bee cards while I continue to perfect the moves. I probably will collect a number of different manipulation cards, and with time, adjust to manipulation cards. I heard someone describe it as learning to drive in a Ford before you take Jaguar for a spin. From what I'm told, once the moves are perfected, the transition from one type of card to another is easy.
From the Encouraging Magic of...

Tony Thomas

www.magictonythomas.com
Brad Jeffers
View Profile
Veteran user
332 Posts

Profile of Brad Jeffers
Tony, I learned card fan productions from Lewis Ganson's book "Card Magic by Manipulation" and Ed Marlo's "Card Fan Productions". It was in the early 70's and those two books were all that was available on the subject. I have always used a method of preparing cards that was described in the Ganson book. You take a metal ruler, and with a single edge razorblade, you make a series of diagonal cuts along the back of each card, in both directions (useing Bee cards you simply follow the diamond pattern, cutting through each line). The cuts penetrate about half the depth of the card. This is easily judged by feel (with a little practice). You will want to dull the blade just a little before you start, as a brand new blade will cut all the way through. Also, stop each cut a bit before reaching the edge of the card. If you go all the way to the edge, the card will tear during use. Apply fanning powder and your all set to go. This is a very tedious process, but worth the trouble. What you end up with is a soft deck of cards, which makes backpalming easier for fan productions, but because they are of regular thickness, they will also have a good feel when doing singles, perfect productions, and such. You will never need a card press with this method, as the cards will always remain flat, and they seem to last forever.
Fábio DeRose
View Profile
Inner circle
San Paolo, Brasile
1477 Posts

Profile of Fábio DeRose
Quote:
On 2011-04-10 22:08, Tony Thomas wrote:
From what I'm told, once the moves are perfected, the transition from one type of card to another is easy.


That is pretty much true. It takes a little while for you to get the hang of the thinner cards but nothing really to worry about.

What you should worry about, though, is that manipulation cards will get you spoiled. You will totally lose the hang of regular cards and that will pose a serious issue if you run out of special cards mid-tour, lets say.
Fábio De'Rose - Ilusionista
www.ENIGMAGICO.com.br

Twitter @Enigmagico
Tony Thomas
View Profile
Inner circle
North Carolina
1239 Posts

Profile of Tony Thomas
Well, I'll post an update because my attitude has changed. I now have purchased more variety of manipulation cards. I have two different thickness Nielsen Cards, Peter Marvey Cards (2 thicknesses), Murphy Cards (veryh soft), and Lance Burton Cards (good, but hard to find). My favorite are now the Nielsen Cards (both sizes are great). I have decided for the routine that I need, I must be able to handle about half a deck in backpalm. To do that effectively I'm going to use manipulation cards rather than Bee Decks. What I liked about the Bee Cards was the stiffness and pop that occured during a singles routine. The Nielsen cards provide enough of that stiffness (hardness) to give a similar feel, even though they are thinner. So, I'm sure it is a personal choice, but I'm going to work out my routines with Nielsen's Deck. I can now run through a coherent routine, but everything is still very rough at this point...
From the Encouraging Magic of...

Tony Thomas

www.magictonythomas.com
Fábio DeRose
View Profile
Inner circle
San Paolo, Brasile
1477 Posts

Profile of Fábio DeRose
This is nice to hear. Just keep in mind that you will likely be stuck with this type of cards. And from what I've heard over the years, Nielsen's quality has severely changed (more like decreased) through the years.

Once you get to a point you feel utterly comfortable, buy a plethora of these cards, just so you will have enough for a long time. And keep practicing and trying out with different types, 'cause you nevr know what the future may bring.
Fábio De'Rose - Ilusionista
www.ENIGMAGICO.com.br

Twitter @Enigmagico
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22177 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Actually, Nielsen cards have increased in quality as the new batches of cards has producted. They have become thinner and plastic coated. The corners do not break as easily as the 1st cards.

They now can "Take a beating and keep on spliting" to steal a saying from Timex Watch commercial.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
Fábio DeRose
View Profile
Inner circle
San Paolo, Brasile
1477 Posts

Profile of Fábio DeRose
Seriously? Their constant breakage is what made me wui the idea of using them years ago. Good to know that.
Fábio De'Rose - Ilusionista
www.ENIGMAGICO.com.br

Twitter @Enigmagico
Tony Thomas
View Profile
Inner circle
North Carolina
1239 Posts

Profile of Tony Thomas
Fabio - That is still good advice to stock up on something that you like. When I settle on a particular deck I will buy a stack of them.
From the Encouraging Magic of...

Tony Thomas

www.magictonythomas.com
cardone
View Profile
Special user
852 Posts

Profile of cardone
I also think red bee backs blend better when your hand moves slightly .. the flesh colored backs seem a bit more noticed because it looks like a dead spot.
Bill Hegbli
View Profile
Eternal Order
Fort Wayne, Indiana
22177 Posts

Profile of Bill Hegbli
Quote:
On 2011-04-30 19:57, cardone wrote:
I also think red bee backs blend better when your hand moves slightly .. the flesh colored backs seem a bit more noticed because it looks like a dead spot.


What? The only way any thing could be noticed is if you stop moveing your had, why would you do that without using the covering moves.

I guess a blending comparison would be more on the issue of your pugment of your hand skin. I practice regularily, and the manipulation cards are totally invisible from 3' from the mirroe.

At any rate the classic card to use is the Steamboat, not the Bee brand of card, no cushion finish on the Steamboat card stock.
---------------------------------------------------------
Lance Burton Deck can be purchased at the Seo Magic site, in the accessories heading.

Norm Nielsen's decks were originally from Europe, they now come from asia. Superior over the originals.
Vietnam Veteran 1967, Sgt. E-5

Graduate of Chavez College of Prestidigitation and Showmanship

"Magic With A Twist Of Comedy"
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Finger/stage manipulation » » Card Manipulation Question (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.19 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL