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ChrisZampese
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OK, the title of this thread may be a bit...abrupt, but that's what I feel we are these days.
It would seem that we are unable to take care of ourselves, or accept responsibility for our own actions.

What I am getting at is the amount of ridiculous laws in place to save us from our own stupidity and lack of common sense.

Take the following as an example (this is a very broad and widely publicised example, but it serves to illustrate my point):
The lady that burnt her mouth while drinking a McD's coffee, then sued McD's, and now warnings have to be put on their coffee cups stating that the bevarage contained within may be hot? WELL DUH!!!
I think we need to start taking responsibility for our own actions.

We are creating a society where 'common sense' (an individuals ability to make rational, sensible decisions) is fast being replaced by 'The Common Sense' (ie common sense pushed upon us by law).

By doing this we are also creating a society where everything becomes 'someone else's responsibility'. I think the classic example (and the most worrying) is parents attitude to their kids schooling. More and more we are seeing parents who refuse to assist in the education of their children, don't encourage them to learn at home, don't teach them manners or how to pay attention, and then blame the teachers for not teaching their children.

We need to grow up and stop blaming others, take responisibilty and make the world a nicer place to be in.

- End of personal rant, I imagine this post will probably not last long!,, but thanks for listening anyway! -
The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are
blindbo
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So, my wife calls into me for dinner.
I say, be right there...just want to read one last post...should be a second....

It is YOUR post. Not short. Takes longer to read. Provolks deeper thought. Stimulates a response.

Wife is mad because dinner is getting cold.

This is all YOUR fault, Chris.
MisterE21
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I agree wholeheartedly with the above post and have made similar comments in hundreds of conversations.

Case in point: Last weekend, my wife comes in the apartment, smoke coming out of her ears. I assume she must have found out about that collection of magic books she doesn't know I bought but, no, the 4 year old from downstairs has been busy coloring with crayons. I ask why this bothers her so much...she says it's because he was doing it on CARS IN THE PARKING LOT!!!! Oh my goodness...I would have NEVER done such a thing, even at the age.

To make it a bit more amusing, an hour later we had to pound on his apartment door for an hour to get his freakin' mother to come out and get him off the nicely dented roof of another car in the parking lot!

While I would never have been drawing on cars, I can say with certainty that if I HAD done such a thing, I would not have been out of the house later that day (probably not out of the house for a week or two) to be sitting on cars!

What in the world happened to responsibility!?!?!?!?
Your EFFECT is only as good as its AFFECT.
Donny Orbit
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I too agree. I also find it unbelievable how much of the things that go on in the world today are attributed to media. A giant slaughter at Columbine is attributed to Marilyn Manson and Matrix movies, whenever the parents are the quickest to point fingers. All the while neglecting the fact that they didn't have any interest in their childrens so called after school activities, or for that matter the websites they were browsing.

XX
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Kathryn Novak
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MisterE21- Be glad he was using crayons, and not a rock! My cousin did that to my dad's car last year. Dad flipped on the parents, who blamed him for yelling at the child and not helping his "creativity". At which point he took the child off of his car, and placed him on theirs. My cousin promptly drew a cloud, trees, and a dog. Smile My point is that parents can sometimes have warped ideas about what is best for their children. Parents ARE putting more and more responsibility in the hands of the schools to raise their children. Their kids sit there for 7-8 hours a day, usually while the parents are at work. So, logically it falls that the school should be helping to teach them to be decent human beings, right? I mean, the parents ARE releasing the care of the child to the school for close to 8 hours a day- sometimes more, if there are any extracurricular activities involved. But the fact of the matter is that most adolescents are NOT easy people to deal with (I should know, I was one myself recently). It's extremely hard to teach them ideals like respect, honesty, hard work, goal setting, prioritizing, and courtesy when the people raising them have to compete with the constant barrage from likes of Eminem and Dr. Dre, the movie industry, and the internet- which often show, tell them or suggest to them to do exactly the opposite of what's listed above. Not to mention that the school also has academic material and criteria to teach! I think parents sometimes feel they can't control their kids, can't compete with the entertainment industry, or possibly feel that the child will learn the lesson much better if they learn it the hard way. The result is that the child/teenager gets neglected, and sometimes never learns common sense.
If anyone sees my sanity, please return it to

me.
irossall
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I think that it is great that the government is starting to pass laws to protect us from ourselves. Here in the Seattle area we have cameras on many corners to watch what is happening on the streets, and in some areas if someone is speeding or goes through a red light, a ticket with a photo is sent to you in the mail. No more time wasted by being pulled over by a policeman and waiting for him to write a ticket. Infrared camera technology is improving so much that now instead of just glowing human shaped images being seen through building walls, it can now be determined if the image is male or female. The feds want to have blimps with the new high tech cameras and hearing devices to be in place 24 hours a day over every major city in the nation (part of "homeland security") so that we can all be safe in and out of our homes. We no longer need to be teaching responsibility to our children; Uncle Sam will be there to take care of any problems that might arise. George Orwell was right, just a little off on the year. The bottom line is, the less we take care of ourselves and take our own responsibility for our actions, the more that the government will.
Iven Smile
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Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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One could take the perspective that a moral compass is lacking in some aspects of our society. One could just as well seek a moral compass based upon taught beliefs... as they compare to socially rewarded behavior. I suggest using behavior as a more accurate measure of 'right' and 'wrong'. That which is 'right/moral' in a society is rewarded.

Interesting to consider the implications of having schools impart/imprint basic moral values on children... as opposed to parents.

Let's apply the basics as taught (USA):
spelling is phonetic vs MANY words are not
all men created equal vs slavery common at the time
Land of the free vs capitalist republic
america as natural leader vs history of empires

These and other similars might suggest to a student that language exists to conceal meaning, and that 'doublethink' is an expected moral compass.

By the way, at least in the USA it's supposedly our government, not 'the government'.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
jonesc2ii
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Well, I'm a parent and (does he have to mention it in EVERY post?) I'm autistic.

I WANT to be allowed the responsibilities; I WANT to be allowed to make decisions.

I THINK (though I could be wrong) that the original post was aimed more at governments than at parents. Obviously, in my situation I have a great deal more contact with 'the services' than most. And here is my rant:

I am not fit to be left in sole charge of my own children! I have been telling people this for many months. I need some help. Because I'm not working Mrs Jones goes out to work. But that means that I'm the 'responsible' parent left at home.

But I can't be responsible. I'm not an idiot and I'm not willfully or purposely irresponsible but sometimes I am just not able to take care of them.

Then maybe we shouldn't have had kids? Well, it's too late for that debate; they're here. And maybe if I had been diagnosed sooner (instead of at the age of 32)... oops...calm down.

So, having been made redundant from 5 computer programming jobs in 5 years, having ended up in a mental hospital following a stress-induced breakdown, I made the decision that I should find another way of making money. So, I am working hard at becoming a pro magician. Of course, this isn't taken seriously. I am being told that I MUST go out and get a job so that my wife can stay home and look after the kids.

Well, of course, that would be the simple solution. But how is it beneficial to the family if I end up back in the hospital, almost catatonic?

I was having unbearable side-effects from the medications I was on so I stopped taking them. Now, everything is my fault. If I'm not willing to take their advice and their meds, they're not willing to help.

I don't need hand-outs, I don't need sympathy and I certainly don't need to be told what I should be doing with my life. I just need a little help.

Blah, blah, blah...

..there's plenty more rant where that came from but I need to remember that this might not be the best place to be venting my frustrations!


I really WANT to help educate my kids. They are great kids and very intelligent and they need a lot of stimulation that they aren't getting from school. So, we (Mrs Jones and I), read with them after school, do painting and writing, visit zoos and so on. But, apparently, the solution to all our problems is to send me back into the slave world, I mean, workplace.

Iven, 'The bottom line is, the less we take care of ourselves and take our own responsibility for our actions, the more that the government will.' - this is true. But it is working the other way round. It isn't a lack of responsibility leading governments to back Big Brother schemes, it is the introduction of government schemes without thinking it through that leads to a lack of responsibility. We are not consulted about the introduction of cameras everywhere, we are TOLD that if we have nothing to hide we should have no problem with them spying on us.

...Grrr...

...Blah de blah...

Smile

...sorry...I know, back in my hole. Smile Smile
www.ixyl.co.uk/forums - for when you fancy a debate or a quiet chat.
hkwiles
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Chris,
Well said!! common sense from a young father -sounds like you should be able to bring your "sprog" up OK.
I'm grateful I was brought up in the 50/60's and even my 24 and 29 year old "sprogs" seem to have got through the difficult part unscathed.

Howard -one sad old geezer who still keeps harping on about the good old days!!
Caleb Strange
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Interesting thread, everybody! On the issue of warnings for idiots, my favourite is:

'This Superman cape does not enable the wearer to fly.'

Kind of the ultimate reductio ad absurdum on this issue of personal responsibilty and the litigious society.

JonTown's suggestion, to look at what we do, rather than say, cuts to the heart of the matter, for me.

Regards,

Caleb Strange.
-- QCiC --
Magix
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Well said, Chris. You took the words right out of my coffee-burned mouth. (Lawsuit pending, can't discuss it on the advice of my attorney.) Smile

OK, which is more idiotic? Suing McD's because you were burned by hot coffee or suing McD's because you're fat? Please don't get me started.

But that will be the next warning that the courts will order McD's to put on their products. Personally, I think that if you can't figure out that coffee is hot and french fries have fat in them, you are probably top stupid to live.

I long for the day when more people start taking responsibility for their actions.
Kathryn Novak
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Then there's the fact that people actually aren't that stupid. Some of them will sue for anything, trying to see if they can make a quick buck or two.
If anyone sees my sanity, please return it to

me.
Jon Gallagher
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People are very quick to point fingers.

Too bad they can't figure out that when they're pointing at someone else, there's always four fingers pointing back at themselves.
www.jongallagher.com

Hey! I'm finally a Dot Com!
Kathryn Novak
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Correction: There's only three fingers pointing back at the pointee. The thumb also points straight forward. Smile Point well taken, however.
If anyone sees my sanity, please return it to

me.
Wolfgang
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Quote:
On 2003-08-11 07:52, irossall wrote:
Here in the Seattle area we have cameras on many corners to watch what is happening on the streets, and in some areas if someone is speeding or goes through a red light, a ticket with a photo is sent to you in the mail.


They experimented with that in Houston, but people shot the cameras out. Now THAT'S taking responsibilty for solving your own problems.
"Sure, I do Scotch and Soda in every show. What? You mean there's a trick by that name?"
RandyStewart
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Hate to do this and almost take us off topic but Jones made a comment that caught my attention. He mentioned the difficulty of taking care of the kids all day while wife is at work. He mentioned needing a little help in that dept. Well said Jones! I'll take it further by reminding you that a little help here and there is what we ALL could use. My life has been full of help when I really needed it.


[quote]On 2003-08-11 08:57, jonesc2ii wrote:
I don't need hand-outs, I don't need sympathy and I certainly don't need to be told what I should be doing with my life. I just need a little help.
</quote>

My friend Jonesc2ii,

I'm not too proud to admit that's exactly how I made it in just about anything I succeeded in. Ouch! actually that did hurt a little bit. Parents brought me into the world, fed, clothed, and nurtered me - something I couldn't do for myself.

As a strong-willed child ie "pain in the ***" at times, I was further helped to understand rules and basic functions in society. The Army further aided in that area.

As a teenager and later young adult in college I used some of my parent's and government's money to pay my way. Something I was unable to do for myself.

As a apparently "responsible" and pretty bright adult I've experienced lay-offs, getting fired once, walking away from truly unfair working conditions, and unemployment benefits process several years ago. I even went on to take a chance and succeed and fail in two of my own businesses and several other major losses by age 30. All the while knowing all I needed was a little help. Eventually I was allowed to see the light and spring back into action. That also, was only possible with a little help from a couple key people in my life.

Things are much better these days. THE DARK CLOUDS OF MY PERSONAL LIFE ARE USUALLY GONE OR MINIMAL AND EASILY HANDLED.

However, to this day I benefit from the help of business friends who allow certain introductions and business deals to occur.

Despite occasional brilliance and tenacity on my part, (strokes ego) It sounds like a great deal of my daily upside is ongoing help from others.

[quote]On 2003-08-11 08:57, jonesc2ii wrote:
I really WANT to help educate my kids. They are great kids and very intelligent and they need a lot of stimulation that they aren't getting from school. So, we (Mrs Jones and I), read with them after school, do painting and writing, visit zoos and so on. But, apparently, the solution to all our problems is to send me back into the slave world, I mean, workplace.
</quote>

If you deal with your kids with the same thoughtful and intelligent contributions you offer here, talk about an awesome learning and living experience! Sounds like you already know how to further enrich your family's life. Now the employment issue is another thing. Don't let it bother you if you have to hold a punch card job while pursuing your plans to go pro. And as far as the autism goes, hell I don't think I've met a truley sane magician or businessman anyway.
ChrisZampese
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Just found this link on the net. I havent had a chance to check out the validity of these cases, but if they are true then they really illustrate my point. Kind of fits well with Kathyrn's point too...maybe these people are not so stupid!

crazy court cases
The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are
zeroG
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Am I alone, or am I the only one who thinks that lawyers' main goals are not to protect people.
Why does everyone immediately take the side of big business?
When I got into magic, I thought that my new peers would be artists and free thinkers. People who would look deeper into a situation to avoid prejudices.
Chris, do a little research on the original case that you mentioned. You might see things from a different point of view.
Look at what motivates lawyers. There may be some answers there.
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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The American ideas of 'redress' and 'jury of peers' and 'right to trial' and 'innocent until proven guilty' do great things to prevent institutional abuses and dogmatic enforcement of policies against the will of the governed. While it took two hundred years to get the miscegenation laws removed, and we still have laws preventing people from civil marriage, the process continues...

If you are addressing the double standard of 'corporate' law and establishment... well that may be worth investigating. The political/economic issues of captial/human rights will be with us for a while. It takes a good deal of will to avoid getting distracted by hot-button issues.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Payne
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Seattle
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Quote:
On 2003-08-14 23:05, ChrisZampese wrote:
Just found this link on the net. I havent had a chance to check out the validity of these cases, but if they are true then they really illustrate my point. Kind of fits well with Kathyrn's point too...maybe these people are not so stupid!

crazy court cases


You will find these "Urban Legend" court cases debunked here

http://www.snopes.com/legal/lawsuits.htm

You can find out about the left out evidence in the McDonalds Hot Coffee Lawsuit here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A429950

And while I too champion the cause for personal resposibility we as magicians should know that things are not always as they seem
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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