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-The Scot-
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Title says it all:

Should magic and hypnosis be used in conjunction?

In my opinion, hypnosis is something completely different than magic, and they shouldn't be used together in the same show.

What do you guys think?
Dr Omni
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I disagree. Unless you are a very big name stage hypnotist, like Paul McKenna, it's a good idea to warm up your audience for the hypnosis show by performing some magic or mentalism - even a gag. It gets people in the right mood, and by bringing out some of the performer's personality and demonstrating his desire to entertain and use skill to do so, it can get people to trust him and believe in the quality of what he is doing.

Also, if there is a situation where nobody volunteers to go on stage (which does happen), then if the performer can do some magic tricks (or mentalism, gags, etc) then at least there is going to be some entertainment taking place and the client and audience will not be completely disappointed.
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shrink
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On 2003-08-11 11:39, Dr Omni wrote:
Also, if there is a situation where nobody volunteers to go on stage (which does happen), then if the performer can do some magic tricks (or mentalism, gags, etc) then at least there is going to be some entertainment taking place and the client and audience will not be completely disappointed.


I agree with having mentalism as a fallback esp in smaller venues. I personally wouldn't have any Magic as such but "MIND" based effects and as realistic as possible.

For bigger venue's you can have mentalsim but it could slow the show down especially if the audience came to see the hypnosis. And its unlikely that you don't get volunteers. Even small venues if your patient and forceful enough you will usually get some volunteers.


I know many years ago there was a stage hypnotist who did some mentalism in big venues. (Raveen I think his name was) and everyone I know who went to see him complained that the mental section sent them to sleep. That was many moons ago!
cupsandballsmagic
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The first time I saw a hypnotist perform in a pub, many many years ago, he only managed to get arounf 7 or so people up, he eventually ended up using just 2 of them.

The result was, I would rather have watched a mentalism set.
shinobi
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gambit, just saw exactly the same thing a few weeks ago..
i feel mental acts are the way to go, or 'tricks' that make the audience wonder if they are actually hypnotized- ie. congruency
shrink
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these kind of venues will only get two good subjects if you are lucky. I never ever did pubs. Even clubs when the turn out is below 100 can give you the same problems however it really dependfs on the hypnotist and the quality of the subject. I have brought the house down on a few occasions with one or two subjects.

Problem with advertised hypnosis shows is that the audience expect to see hypnosis mentalism is a cop out to them. At least it was like that 7 years ago over here. I still get asked to hypno shows and when I offer to a mentalism set instead they are disappointed and never take me up on it. Smile
BlackSalt
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Are we talking theatre or not?

We have no problem incorporating mentalism directly into a hypnosis show.

The "hypnotized subjects" collectively concentrate on a simple piece of wood and OH MY GOSHHHHHH! The force of their heightened concentration causes the wood to "Telekinetically Timber" over!

I arrange 5 ESP cards in a secret order on a plexiglas board. The hypnotized subjects speak from within their deep trance and tell me in what order to place a duplicate set of ESP cards in another strip of plexi. OH MY GOOOODNESSSSS! Be darned if their set and mine don't happen to be a "Perfect Match".

We have performed examples like these in shows where there is a limited number of volunteers and as quick publicity stunts.

As too using mentalism as a lead-in to your hypnosis act; choose one killer routine that shows your personality as a performer. It must give them a clear impression of who you are and that you can be trusted. Perform something that just isn't your style and you will look like a used car salesman and may need to do a bit of convincing to fill your chairs.


Best regards.
Michael BlackSalt
A Vacation For The Mind!
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shrink
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Mentalism goes down fine over here within a hypnosis program. I used to to do a whole section that went down pretty good about 40mins. However its hypnosis that SELLS tickets. Mentalism seems to be quite big in the US with such terms as Corporate Mentalists...as far as I am aware they don't exist over here. And if they come to see a hyposis show and you fall back on just mentalism they will be dissapointed although I agree its better than nothing. In about 7 years performing full time I think I cancelled two shows due to an unsuitable audience the size and the attitude.

What we are talking about with smaller venues is the majority are here to see the show rather than volunteer that's just a plain fact. Secondly everyone who volunteers is not suitable for stage work. So your percentages for volunteers diminish dramatically.

At one time I regularly did shows with around 1000 in the audience.

oh yeah Ive trained car salesmen in the use of hypnotic language to! Kithchen salesman,,you name it.

We also had a lot of bad publicity that hurt the public attitude to hypnosis.
Dr Omni
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BlackSalt makes a good point about theatre. It's worth looking through the magic and mentalism books to see if there's anything particularly appropriate for use in a stage hypnosis show. One effect I've done in the middle of the show is a card effect originally created by Dunninger and included in "Scarne on Card Tricks". One seated subject picks a card from the deck proferred by the performer. Then a second seated subject looks into a crystal ball held by the performer and is asked if he or she sees anything. The second subject names a card, the performer takes the orignal card from his pocket and - hey presto! - the two cards are the same! Although I have performed this, and I don't want to go into details about method (those with the Scarne book can check for themselves), the problem with people in a trance is that don't always respond in a predictable way. When I was interviewed on English-language cable TV in Spain last year I hypnotised one of the two female interviewers and asked her to say what she could see in the crystal ball. She replied, "My grandmother". So I reached into my pocket and - hey presto! - (no, I couldn't quite pull that one off). Then I asked her is she could see a playing card and she replied with the wrong one (but the correct suit). To cover this situation, it's a good idea to proclaim before the effect that it's just an experiment.
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shrink
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Dr Omni...try post hypnotic suggestions. They will say anything you want then! I also used hypnotise subjects just using psychic abilty. I would stand with my back to the volunteers close my eyes and after a few moments they would one by one go into trance...Im sure you can work out how I did it.

You can control what they say and include it in pseudo piece of telepathy.....Imagine what you could do with a see through force bag...effect....a spectator picks out a piece of paper from a bag of names of places or whatever written down by 30 members of the audience (or less). The spectatorpicks it at random and concentrates on the word trying to project it to the hypnotised subject. You then the wake up the subject and ask what is on their mind! of course they say exactly what the spectator was projecting.


I am sure you can work this out! Smile
Lee Darrow
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Well, I've been doing both hypnosis and mentalism and even some magic as a combination for about 30 years or so and it works for me.

One of the key considerations is the selections of magic or mental effects that you are going to use. Sucker tricks are out, because audiences often worry about being made to look like fools in a hypnosis show to begin with.

I prefer effects that either make the audience member look good or ones that make it look like I am "one who knows."

The prestige factor in a hypnosis show is critical. Without it, you will not get very far, if anywhere, at all. Select effects that will enhance your standing in the eyes of the audience.

Or, go the backwards route as I have done and do the hypnosis set first, following it with a SHORT but strong mental routine or two just as a value-added sales point. It's rare that I do this, but it has played well in short show situations, where there is significant subject fallout.

In other words a good psychometry or blindfold routine makes great time filler when you get a crowd that is low on the response scale for hypnosis. Smile

And that DOES happen, folks. Trust me on that. To everyone.

Lee Darrow, C.Ht.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
cupsandballsmagic
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What a great topic and some great posts.

Hypnotism and pre-show, now that's a realm full of possibilities.......
MagicalPirate
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My Blake Andrews DREAMSHOW is a full evening performance of Magic and Hypnotism. It is billed as such and is used as a fundraising show. Nobody is disappointed as they are aware upfront of what to expect.

I perform a family style magic show with audience participation. This gives the children a chance to participate as they are not going to be included in the group that you will call the hypnosis show volunteers from. High School age and up on in the Hypnosis Show part.

Coming to hypnosis from a magic background has left me with a different perspective. Even when doing the Hypnosis Show only I will open with some kind of stunt just to develop rapport with the audience. Blair Robertson's new package out just recently goes along this same vein of thinking and I found it to be a worthwhile investment.

http://www.mental-list.com/masterhypnosis.htm
Martin Blakley, CSH, DASH, CMSA
http://www.thehypnoguy.com/HYPNORESOURCES
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Stuart Cumberland
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Quote:
On 2003-08-11 12:11, shrink wrote:
I know many years ago there was a stage hypnotist who did some mentalism in big venues. (Raveen I think his name was) and everyone I know who went to see him complained that the mental section sent them to sleep. That was many moons ago!


Peter Reveen always starts his concerts with a memory demonstration, and has done for 40+ years.

I'm not offended by Shrinks friends comments--those who went to sleep during this hypnotists presentations, but I'd be willing to bet it *wasn't* a Reveen show!

Reveen's presentation of the Knights Tour is an object lesson in showmanship. He often got standing ovations after completing the tour! His presentation of the Giant Memory was funny, fast and amazing. He also does a magic square that floors the audience.

Reveen is a household name here in Canada, and I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever match his attendance records or his showmanship abilities. Truly, an amazing man.

The question, can magic/mentalism mix with hypnosis... the answer is yes. It has been done for decades.

Ormond McGill toured with an Illusion/mentalism/hypnosis show and took it around the world (and made millions). Virgil did the same. Many of the Ghost Show operators did the same.

McGill summed it up best. Tell them that they've just witnessed magic of the eyes, now you'll witness magic of the *mind*.

It works well. It is part of my "secret" to fast hypnosis inductions, as Martin kindly mentioned above. I wouldn't ever do a hyp show without including an opening routine of magic or psychic phenomenon.

That's my two cents! TTFN..

Blair

Stage Hypnosis Secrets Revealed:www.Mental-List.com/masterhypnosis.htm
Pakar Ilusi
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Derren Brown does it all the time...

To the extent that you don't know which is which...

So does Luke Jermay...

Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
bobser
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Pakar, I find it extremely interesting that you rekindled this old post. The writer, 'The Scot, looks like he never made a profession of it, since he doesn't reside here any more. That other guy, Shrink, he never made it either.
But what is interesting is how 'our world' has changed within the last 5 yrs or so. That question could hardly be asked today, since many magicians use hypnosis pseudo or not, during their shows. I guess if you can... you do.

bobser
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
mindpunisher
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Actually bobser shrink is doing ok with a derivative of hypnosis. One which hardly anyone else has managed to do. In fact I heard he's just been booked to talk at a conference where members of Dragon's Den have appeared. Apparantly business people are seeking him out to learn more about the work he has developed.

Perhaps he just has higher standards? I mean why would he go backwards?

Yep things have changed a lot in the last five years. They will change again. The hypno-magi phenomenom has barely been born. Give it time that will change too. It may be thriving but not anywhere near the popularity of stage hypnosis many years ago. If it does start to get more attention then that will be interesting how it developes.

Will be interesting to visit this thread in another five years if its still going.
Pakar Ilusi
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Ok, see you guys at this thread in five years... Smile
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
MagicalPirate
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It's just amazing they can't see Superman for his glasses. I'm still here and still doing Hypnosis Shows, so some things change and some things don't.

Martin Smile
Martin Blakley, CSH, DASH, CMSA
http://www.thehypnoguy.com/HYPNORESOURCES
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virtualguy
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Quote:
On 2003-08-11 11:39, Dr Omni wrote:
>snip< ... if there is a situation where nobody volunteers to go on stage (which does happen), then if the performer can do some magic tricks (or mentalism, gags, etc) then at least there is going to be some entertainment taking place and the client and audience will not be completely disappointed.


Wrong.

Only a completely unprofessional performer would ever put himself in such a situation in the first place. When you set yourself up for failure to start with, you have a pretty good chance of achieving that end. No audience should be made to witness an idiot performer trying to claw his way out of the hole he dug before ever stepping onto the stage. It is very unsightly!

NEVER accept a gig that doesn't give you an opportunity for success. If there will be more people in the show than in the audience, don't do it. Period.

The performing hypnotist has but a few seconds to make a good first impression. The next few minutes are critical and should establish credibility, authority and rapport with the audience. No one will give a moron license to their mind. At least, no one but another moron. And morons don't make the best volunteers on stage.

A good hypnotist performer commands the attention of the audience, earns their confidence with his stage presence and dialog, and gives himself every opportunity to have a successful show. Success is in the details.

As to the original question, in my view, there is no reason why hypnosis and magic can't share the stage. But, there is no reason why they should. One should not have to rely on the other.

VG
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