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Deano88
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Hi

I am a 3rd year psychology and forensic psychology student with the psychology of magic as a major theme, the idea is to use a simple coin vanish to see if a curved motion is more effective than a straight line motion for misdirection, whereas straight motion is more effective than a curved motion in other situations, one underlying neuroscientific hypothesis is that curved versus straight motion results in different types of eye movements and those eye movements have different effects on attention. If this was correct it may reveal a new perspective on the relationship between cognition and the oculomoter system.

Another idea was with mental forces and priming which I have yet to further look into. I wondered if anyone had any interest or ideas in this area

Thanks

Dean
BarryFernelius
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Dean,

I can see a few problems with your idea. First, how are you going to create two vanishes where everything else is the same, but one uses a curved motion and the other uses a straight motion? Second, vanishes are not usually done in isolation. Instead, they are often part of a larger routine. How do you isolate the vanish from the context in which it occurs? Third, misdirection is much more complicated than curved versus straight motions. There are a whole bunch of other variables that are very important, including the magician's use of his body, his eyes, his voice, etc.

How much work have you done studying so-called simple coin vanishes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX3wDay9YVY Very painful, yet fairly typical
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2VhU_F0V2E Young David Roth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5lGwhbvANo Slydini on an old Dick Cavett show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b75RWlxCSzQ John Carney's coin and glass routine
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."

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Ray Pierce
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It's a great idea but it has already been researched a fair amount. There were two scientests that used eye tracking systems to follow the focus for curved paths and straight paths for a coin vanish with the result that the curved path created better misdirection and provided a more interesting path for the brain to pull the focus. It was done on a television show that shot in Vegas and I know Mac King and several other magicians were on it. Maybe you could check with him. Sadly I didn't get to record it but found it very interesting. I'm sure someone else on here had to have seen it as well.
Ray Pierce
<BR>www.HollywoodAerialArts.com
Damon Zale
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Dean, what kind of dissertation are you thinking about, Phd?

Ray is talking about Stephen L. Macknik and Susana Martinez-Conde - they indeed have done research that sounds exactly like yours (unless you are a student in their labs).

I am very much interested in any PHD level research relating to magic because that is something I am thinking about, finding an interesting area , then an interested professor somewhere in the NYC area and go back to grad school.
I can see how priming can be related to mental forces/psychological forces and it would be very cool area. Also, it might be easier to research it on psychology undergraduates [aka volunteers Smile ]. And, you don't need as fancy a lab as any neuroscience research is bound it need (on flip side, neuroscience is Very cool). Finally, priming has more relevance to forensic psychology.
Donal Chayce
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Quote:
On 2011-05-10 15:02, Dmitriy Zalesskiy wrote:

Ray is talking about Stephen L. Macknik and Susana Martinez-Conde - they indeed have done research that sounds exactly like yours (unless you are a student in their labs).



To the OP: If you've not done so already, you should check out Macknik's and Martinez-Conde's book Sleights of Mind:
http://www.sleightsofmind.com/

You'll find information about the test you're wanting to conduct and a whole host more.
Deano88
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Firstly thanks for your responses, Barry in answer to your questions: First, how are you going to create two vanishes where everything else is the same, but one uses a curved motion and the other uses a straight motion?

My idea was going to use the french drop and the straight or curved motion was going to be conveyed after the 'drop' , the idea being that straight motion would more likely bring you straight back to the dirty hand, whereas the curved motion would not allow the eyes to snap back to the dirty hand.

As for your other questions I fully understand where you are coming from with this, it was more an experiment of eye motion , with the use of a coin slieght to show this, but you asking such questions has made me think that maybe the priming idea will be better

As for the Stephen L. Macknik and Susana Martinez-Conde book of course I have read this , you will find if you have read it that there is little experimental evidence for the things they say , even though as magiciuans we are aware of such psychological principles litle research has been done, and the book is more a pop psychology book than based on true research.
Not to say I didn't enjoy reading it.

Hi Dmitriy this is a degree disseratation and would be very interested if you have any ideas regarding the priming il will pm

Thanks again for the response

Dean
Damon Zale
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Dean, I am curious which direction you want to go: 1) take a force and try to show how it works and if maybe it works by magician first priming the audience (ex think of a very odd number). 2) OR, do you want to find a way to use priming to influence people to think of something and that something be useful in magic as a force. Or a mix?

My favorite re-search on priming: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8765481

Unrelated but I often describe the idea of priming to people as a pseudo explanation 'how I might have done' a prediction type effect - and if you there were research proven examples of 1 I would actually be telling the truth. Smile
Ray Pierce
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Quote:
On 2011-05-11 08:34, Deano88 wrote:
As for the Stephen L. Macknik and Susana Martinez-Conde book of course I have read this , you will find if you have read it that there is little experimental evidence for the things they say...


On the television show I saw... they ran the exact same experiment you were describing, tracking the eye motion to both a curved and straight path of a coin vanish then measuring that along side the viewer's reaction and how fooled they were. I haven't read the book but would like to. I only saw footage the practical tests they conducted with the eye tracking system.
Ray Pierce
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Dorianmagic
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Quote:
On 2011-05-10 14:30, BarryFernelius wrote:
Dean,

I can see a few problems with your idea. First, how are you going to create two vanishes where everything else is the same, but one uses a curved motion and the other uses a straight motion? Second, vanishes are not usually done in isolation. Instead, they are often part of a larger routine. How do you isolate the vanish from the context in which it occurs? Third, misdirection is much more complicated than curved versus straight motions. There are a whole bunch of other variables that are very important, including the magician's use of his body, his eyes, his voice, etc.

How much work have you done studying so-called simple coin vanishes?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX3wDay9YVY Very painful, yet fairly typical
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2VhU_F0V2E Young David Roth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5lGwhbvANo Slydini on an old Dick Cavett show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b75RWlxCSzQ John Carney's coin and glass routine



Barry, I agree completely. There's so much to learn from these people. I recently spent the better part of two months working on Carney's Coin and Glass Routine, a beautiful combination of misdirection, subtle one ahead principles, and complete linear thinking. I've performed this routine twice so far, with excellent response from both magicians and lay audiences. I think it's more appreciated by magicians since they have a better idea of what's really going on. (not all but some)
It's also a great practice exercise (right & left Downs palms, Ramsey subtlety and especially the coin star. BTW I had an awful time finding the right glass.
Jim Sparx
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You did not say what school you were at, or I missed it.
Simon Southern Moss
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Similar effects in the attention area may be relevant--such as the concept of "inhibition of return". That is, when people attend to one spot, they are not as likely to look at the same spot over the next second or so. Another concept is "negative priming". If people need to ignore one feature at one time, such as the color red, they will tend to ignore this feature the next time as well.
MagicDan3333
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Interested in how magic effects have been used by cult leaders to deceive. Anyone have information on this?
MRSharpe
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MagicDan3333: It depends on what you mean by 'cult leaders' as this term can include anything from modern cults to ancient religions. Eg. modern faith healers of all sorts use sleight of hand and other magic methods to convince their "flock" that they are legitimate. The also use "profiling" of audience members to convince them that they have extraordinary powers. Ancient shamans also used and modern shamans still use simple magic effects to convince their clients, patients, etc of their credibility. Burger and Neale have some information on this in their book Magic and Meaning and you might want to check it out. The real question though is about the ethics and morality of the practice. Is the cult leader using these techniques for the purposes of conning his followers or to convince them, benignly, that he is legitimate and can help them out? In the former situation the ethics are very thin and in the latter they are more solid. One has to ask is a small wrong being committed for the purposes of a better good.
Custom Props Designer and Fabricator as well as Performer from Indiana, USA
Dick Oslund
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The "end" does not justify the "means".
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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jun 11, 2015, MagicDan3333 wrote:
Interested in how magic effects have been used by cult leaders to deceive. Anyone have information on this?


That depends on your interpretation of cult... so staying away from the basic religion/politics of it ... history is written by those who ... what was that about George Washington and a cherry tree or Newton and an apple?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
jstreiff
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I read the question regarding cult leaders as purely historical; no mention of ethics in the query.
John
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