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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Catch this if you can! » » Juggling as magic (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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panlives
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Quote:
On 2011-09-08 14:41, jugglestruck wrote:
And it's not just the secrecy aspect, at magic conventions things HAPPEN ON TIME because timetables are firmly adhered to by respectably coiffeured gentlemen.
At a juggling convention I once waited six hours for a stoned hippy to get out of his pit to run a contact juggling workshop - and well worth the wait it was too!


Respectable magicians?

: )
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
jugglestruck
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Okay, point taken Smile
Al Angello
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Jugglers are just cut from a different cloth than magicians, and magicians haven't a clue what we are talking about.

Jugglestruck
In all fairness getting a buzz on is more accepted in your country. Where as the rest of us live in an uptight backward society.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
panlives
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By the way, Al, it is great to see you back!!!
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
Al Angello
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I'm not really back I only post here, rope magic, and kids magic. You are very unlikely to ever see me at not very magical still forum.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com
http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
panlives
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Quote:
On 2011-09-10 14:02, Al Angello wrote:
I'm not really back I only post here, rope magic, and kids magic. You are very unlikely to ever see me at not very magical still forum.



Well, it is still nice to see you and be able to read your posts.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
"The dog did nothing in the night-time."
"That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes.
jugglestruck
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Al, I love your post "magicians haven't a clue what we are talking about."
I hear you!
Al Angello
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There is a brotherhood among jugglers that magicians don't believe, or understand. A simple concep like "Share the art" magicians interpert as "Sell the art". The fact that ALL juggling tricks are in the public domaine, and only juggling routines are considered personal property is a simple concept that magicians will argue with you on until the cows come home. Once Nick Gatto said to me that if you can copy Anthony's routine you have earned the right to perform it. LOL
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
jugglestruck
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I feel the share/sell issue stems from the fact that if you just watch a juggler you can see there is no real secret but you know to copy him just takes long, long hours of practice - take the Anthony Gatto comment above.

When people watch a magician they are after that particular secret, the workings, the hidden move that is so ellusive. The public think if they know that secret then they too would be able to achieve the miracle, of course it is not that simple, but they think it is.

There is no doubt that some magic has a quick, easy secret and that is where the selling comes in. I can see why too - say you invented the TT do you give it away or make a few bucks? Human nature seems to dictate the latter......

A long time ago (1991) I invented a juggling pattern called Luke's Shuffle which I happily donated to Charlie Dancey to include in his book "The encyclopedia of three ball juggling". I must admit, money never crossed my mind, I was, and still am, just really glad it is out there in the public domain.
Al Angello
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No one that I have ever met learned to to a three ball cascade in order to use that skill to make money at it. The making money part comes way after the desire to become a real juggler is achieved. I do silly clumsy juggling in my show, and I tell kids that I practiced an hour a day for twenty five years before I got good enough to juggle, and make it look clumsy.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
jugglestruck
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It is interesting just how often you read in magic related articles things like - How to make more money, How to charge top rates etc whereas in all my years of juggling I always got the impression people did it for love and money really didn't enter the equation.
Al Angello
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Making money is very important, but first you must be a juggler.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Rotten
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For me it boils down to the fact that it took a good five years before my 4 minute stick routine was anywhere close to where it is today and yet last week I learned a 3 minute magic routine in five minutes. That is where the secrecy lies IMO. I know there are exceptions to this. Many card slights would take years to master. But there are few, if any, juggling tricks a person can learn in a short time. So if time equals money then jugglers are highly under paid.
jugglestruck
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Good point, if anybody wants to watch me juggle 5 balls it's gonna cost them!
Al Angello
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Rotten
You are right, but I have been offered chump change to do magic conventions, because magicians just don't get it.
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
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http://home.comcast.net/~juggleral/
"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Rotten
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And I have taken their chump change. They are the best audiences for a juggler, aren't they? You must be stubborn to be a juggler. Or is it patience? Either way we're a little crazy or we wouldn't be doing it.
FifthColumnist
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I feel this topic could run forever. I'm going to throw my twopenn'orth in as someone who pretty much began to learn both (and origami) at the same time in my early teens.

The common root is performance art. The audience is key. It is like the old question about a tree falling in a forest. If no-one hears it does it still make a sound. Replace falling tree with performing; magician, juggler, musician or comedian and the principle is the same.

I think magicians would have a greater problem with the question 'if gaffs are used is it magic?' Pure card legerdemain is closer to juggling than bent/gaffed cards purely because of the skill involved. This argument would defeat the most cynical of card fondlers!

The difference between the two is what the spectator sees. In juggling you display your skill as the centrepoint. In legerdemain, NOT showing anything other than everyday moves is the key. I think it is this deception that causes the card men to huff, tut and look down on the humble juggler.

The final point is perception of both. For so long the magician has had the veneer of respectability, more so with a stage, top hat and beautiful assistant. Whereas the juggler has been represented by university dropouts in baggy/striped trousers and smelling vaguely of pot, virtually begging for tips on the Thames embankment... Frankly, it isn't any wonder that some of the best jugglers hide their respective lights under a bushel.
esther_scheffer
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Those jugglers you look down on can be real jugglers. Juggling from the heart.
You have people who can juggle (and might use this in performance) and then you have jugglers (who might also juggle in performances).
Anyway being a juggler goes way beyond what kind of clothes you wear and/or worring about what other jugglers wear.
FifthColumnist
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Esther, (and anyone else this pertains too) I meant no offence in my description of jugglers. The perception I implied is from the viewpoint of the spectator. To reinforce my point, when was the last time you say a juggler on mainstream television? In the UK we have had something of a renaissance in magic on television. For the past few years, Derren Brown and more recently Dynamo and 'Penn and Teller Fool Us'. Frankly I have no problem with either community and happily straddle both. I agree with your last point, well said. Smile
elmago
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I guess it all comes down to the presentation. If there is a magic effect with the juggling, then it is magic. If you make a ball appear and dissapear during your juggling, then you have a combo act.

Ive been at the magic castle in Hollywood where the have jugglers featured in the stage show. It is usually referred to as "a different kind of magic".

The word magic is a broad term that is very subjective. A magical feeling! The sun rising or setting is magical. You saw a concert by your favorite musician and it was magical. The birth of your children was magical. You first kiss was magical, and so on.

Lets assume the magic the title of this thread is the type of magic this site is known to be. Then, deception is a part of magic. It is the part that makes the magic, well, magic. The presentation is always the most important feature. But some kind of deception has to be there to be classified as a magic trick.

So let say you make a ball appear, then a second. You start juggling the two and then out of nowhere, a third appears as you go into a cascade. The balls appreared magically. How? That is the magic.

But juggling by itself is not magic. Although a great performance of juggling can be very magical.
"Excellence is not a single act; it's a habit" Shaq quoting Aristotle after winning NBA MVP.
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