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Decomposed
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On 2011-05-20 07:38, whiteoakcanyon wrote:
When performing mentalism I like the approach of pointing out after the second effect that I am not here to try to convince you of anything but rather to entertain you. It is just part of the banter and not meant as a point of discussion. I have seen Osterlind take this approach on one of his DVDs.


Dittos, I don't like to lie. I usually lay it out right from the beginning in a show, Im an entertainer, come to entertain you. No false claims. I then go into my show and try not to think about it. Strolling is a different matter. No one really questions me and never call anything a trick. They do but I don't.

Even straight out magic, its hard to actually perform without deception in one way or the other. Television movies acting would be all lies from the start. I represent what a psychic does with mentalism but mine is only entertainment, like a face psychic. Smile

Decomposing in heat
lynnef
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I love a good lie in watching or performing magic. Pixie dust? yea, I got it! Did you know that the chemical reaction from the warmth of your touch can turn a blue card red? It's a law of physics! Speaking certain magic words also creates vibrations which alter brain waves!

Yes there are those gullible ones who actually believe that you can bend spoons (years after Uri Geller's performance) with your mind. And I don't like psychics who do harm to people's emotions and pocket books. But there are also many audience members who'd rather say "how'd he do that?" than "did he read my mind?"; knowing *** well that the magician, whether a mentalist or levitator, is lying.

BTW, can't lying act as misdirection at times? (eg watching your facial expression, while your hands are busy palming cards, etc)

anyway, I've enjoyed this thread. Lynn
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On 2011-08-10 11:51, Decomposed wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-20 07:38, whiteoakcanyon wrote:
When performing mentalism I like the approach of pointing out after the second effect that I am not here to try to convince you of anything but rather to entertain you. It is just part of the banter and not meant as a point of discussion. I have seen Osterlind take this approach on one of his DVDs.


Dittos, I don't like to lie. I usually lay it out right from the beginning in a show, Im an entertainer, come to entertain you. No false claims. I then go into my show and try not to think about it. Strolling is a different matter. No one really questions me and never call anything a trick. They do but I don't.

Even straight out magic, its hard to actually perform without deception in one way or the other. Television movies acting would be all lies from the start. I represent what a psychic does with mentalism but mine is only entertainment, like a face psychic. Smile

Decomposing in heat


Sometimes I fear we become like Snug the Joiner, in his absurdly ridiculous and unintentionally comic Lion costume:

Snug. [as Lion] "You, ladies, you, whose gentle hearts do fear
The smallest monstrous mouse that creeps on floor,
May now perchance both quake and tremble here,
When lion rough in wildest rage doth roar.
Then know that I, one Snug the joiner, am
A lion-fell, nor else no lion's dam;
For, if I should as lion come in strife
Into this place, 'twere pity on my life."

--Snug the Joiner, Shakespeare, "Midsummer Night's Eve"
charliewerner
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"A lie is need if you don't want teach the effect"

"A lie is good if it doesn't harm you spectator.. Telling them only 1 percent people in the world that might have this power might stop them wasting time on really trying to spent spoon with their mind"

"A lie is good if you hate that person a lot"
"Seeing Joy, Sadness, Anger,Contempt,Surprise, Disgust,Fear on people faces are the motivation of my MAGIC" Charlie Werner (C.C.L)
writeall
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"I can't really bend spoons with my mind, but if I could, this is what it would look like."
Thom Bliss
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Late a minute there Whit! Are you saying that you're not really a time-traveler trapped in the 21st century?
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On 2012-01-13 20:47, Thom Bliss wrote:
Late a minute there Whit! Are you saying that you're not really a time-traveler trapped in the 21st century?


Well, of course I would, if that got me the job. I'll pretend to be born in any century, even this one, if that is what the client wants to hear. They will still get Pop, though, no matter what I promise... Smile

I have never understood what people have against lying. Lying is one of the things that makes us human. Show me a man who cannot lie, and I will show you a moral midget and social misfit.

Does a moral person tell the SS, "Oh, that Jewish family? They are hiding in a secret room behind that wall."

Does a reasonable person say, "Honey, I am organizing a surprise party for your birthday. That is why I am going to be gone all morning."

Would anyone but an idiot say, "I am not really a lion, folks. This is just a costume?"
Higgenbottom
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"I can't really bend spoons with my mind, but if I could, this is what it would look like."


I can just imagine it now, a soap opera or medical drama, where the actors don’t “Lie” to their audience –

Actor A: I’m not really sick, but if I were I might say that my symptoms included a sore pinky and my hair turning blue.

Actor B: I’m not really a doctor, but if I was I might diagnose that as acute Patagonian fever.

Actor C: I’m not really his wife and I don’t really love that guy, but if I were his wife and I loved him, I might be worried.

Actor B: If I were really a doctor, I might tell you that there is nothing to worry about because I have contacted the world’s leading authority on Patagonian fever and that he’s in the next room, but since I’m not a doctor all I can tell you is that there is an actor just off camera who will pretend to be the world’s leading authority on Patagonian fever.
Pop Haydn
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There is nothing wrong with lying, as long as the purpose of the lie is to build up human relationships and the spirits and self-confidence of others. A lie that is meant to take unfair advantage of someone, hurt their feelings, or cause them any kind of harm, then it an evil lie.

Magic lies help to build up human relationships, they create puzzles and fantasies for the audience to think about, and encourage both critical and creative thought.
They are helpful in reminding people that we are more vulnerable to fraud than we thought. This is the best weapon against fraud.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2012-01-17 05:09, Higgenbottom wrote:
Quote:
"I can't really bend spoons with my mind, but if I could, this is what it would look like."


I can just imagine it now, a soap opera or medical drama, where the actors don’t “Lie” to their audience –

Actor A: I’m not really sick, but if I were I might say that my symptoms included a sore pinky and my hair turning blue.

Actor B: I’m not really a doctor, but if I was I might diagnose that as acute Patagonian fever.

Actor C: I’m not really his wife and I don’t really love that guy, but if I were his wife and I loved him, I might be worried.

Actor B: If I were really a doctor, I might tell you that there is nothing to worry about because I have contacted the world’s leading authority on Patagonian fever and that he’s in the next room, but since I’m not a doctor all I can tell you is that there is an actor just off camera who will pretend to be the world’s leading authority on Patagonian fever.


As actors playing roles do not intend to deceive the audience, their portrayals are not "lies."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Here's a thought: it seems to me that it is a peculiarity to mentalists that they feel they must somehow avoid the possibility that some audience members "believe" that what they are doing is real.

That fascinates me.

I suppose that there are many reasons for this. But could at least one of them be that a lot of people involved in mentalism take themselves waaayyyyy too seriously?

This discussion never seems to come up among stage illusionists. No one really worries about how the audience might misperceive levitations or zig-zagged women. Someone like Ray Price doesn't fret over people mistaking him for a miracle worker.

While I admire the twinkle in Whit's eye, and while he does a masterful job of working it into his character, I do not think it is ethically required.

To be frank, I don't think a performer has any ethical requirement to make any kind of disclaimer in any way. Perhaps the promoter of an event ought to make a "don't try this at home" statement for fire-eaters and sword-swallowers. But that's just for legal reasons.

So if someone believes Blaine has magical powers, blame parents, churches, and schools, not David Blaine.

We're into Darwin Award territory, if you ask me.
LobowolfXXX
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On 2012-02-04 05:43, stoneunhinged wrote:
Here's a thought: it seems to me that it is a peculiarity to mentalists that they feel they must somehow avoid the possibility that some audience members "believe" that what they are doing is real.

That fascinates me.

I suppose that there are many reasons for this. But could at least one of them be that a lot of people involved in mentalism take themselves waaayyyyy too seriously?

This discussion never seems to come up among stage illusionists. No one really worries about how the audience might misperceive levitations or zig-zagged women. Someone like Ray Price doesn't fret over people mistaking him for a miracle worker.

While I admire the twinkle in Whit's eye, and while he does a masterful job of working it into his character, I do not think it is ethically required.

To be frank, I don't think a performer has any ethical requirement to make any kind of disclaimer in any way. Perhaps the promoter of an event ought to make a "don't try this at home" statement for fire-eaters and sword-swallowers. But that's just for legal reasons.

So if someone believes Blaine has magical powers, blame parents, churches, and schools, not David Blaine.

We're into Darwin Award territory, if you ask me.

It's nice to try relatively new and unfamiliar things, so I'm going to disagree with Stone. I mean it was worded pretty softly, so yeah I guess that *could* be *one* of the reasons, but for the most part, I don't think so. Or at least not anything close to a major reason. Zig Zag Woman is a great example of what I think the salient difference is - it's inherent in the nature of the material. It wouldn't occur to any magician to give a disclaimer (other than for comedic value), because nobody is thinking that it's anything other than illusion. In contrast, many people DO think that the abilities "demonstrated" by the mentalist *are* in fact "real."

Intuitively, too, I don't think that the disclaimer suggests that they take emselves too seriously (though this may be a 'disagreement' that is merely about our definitions). I would think that the more seriously one takes himself, the *less* likely he would be to disclaim,as he would be more inclined to want the audience to believe that he has powers (or may even believe that he does, himself). Empirically, this matches up to my experience not just across genres, but within the field of this mentalists whom I know personally or whose work I know. The ones who DO disclaim, as a group, in my experience, don't take themselves too seriously (and the ones who do take themselves way too seriously, as a group, tend not to disclaim).

This is not to suggest that there's an obligation to disclaim, but rather that there is at least one good reason for disclaimers that has nothing to do with ego, or taking oneself too seriously: Mentalism, for the most part, has a much greater chance of really affecting someone's worldview than magic does. Whether that difference impels one to disclaim or not, I think it should at least give most reasonable people pause for thought..
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Your point is well taken. But remember that back in the early 1920s when Selbit started (or resurrected) the idea of sawing a woman in half, people were truly expecting blood. So at least part of this is contextual: modern audiences, jaded by a century of magic and technological illusion in media, know they are simply being fooled by zig-zag.

Meanwhile, I'll concede that there are a number of charlatan's who use mentalism techniques to do great harm to credulous people.

Still, some teenager with a fresh copy of Corina feeling obliged to give a disclaimer strikes me as silly. And my point--perhaps made badly--is that the very same exact teenager might go on to do an ACR sans disclaimer without feeling any compunction whatsoever.

Or so it seems from reading the Café. My picture of the way magicians and mentalists think is obviously skewed by Café discussion. Smile
Higgenbottom
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Quote:
On 2012-02-04 01:58, LobowolfXXX wrote:
As actors playing roles do not intend to deceive the audience, their portrayals are not "lies."

But aren't we, as magicians, also actors?
stoneunhinged
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That was Lobo's point.
Pop Haydn
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But we are actors who "prove" we are who we claim to be...

Is the woman who "deceives" her husband about the surprise party "Lying?"

It isn't a question of lying or not lying. It is a question of good lying and bad lying.
stoneunhinged
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On 2012-02-05 06:48, Pop Haydn wrote:
But we are actors who "prove" we are who we claim to be...


Right. But the "proof" is part of the act, and the act (provided it's not charlantry) is understood to be a kind of theater.

A surprise party is also a kind of theater.
Matze
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On 2011-05-21 09:57, Fábio DeRose wrote:
Truth is a deeply subjective concept.


that's sounds really irrational

either something is true or it isn't ,period.
Pop Haydn
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Quote:
On 2012-02-05 08:16, Matze wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-05-21 09:57, Fábio DeRose wrote:
Truth is a deeply subjective concept.


that's sounds really irrational

either something is true or it isn't ,period.


Is the sun "True?"
stoneunhinged
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On 2012-02-20 15:01, Pop Haydn wrote:

Is the sun "True?"


Yes.

That'll be $100.

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