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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Lance Armstrong (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-05-26 14:04, Tom Cutts wrote:
Is it that the sport is seen as a product for your consumption?


I suppose you could say it that way. It's certainly a public issue of some kind, while my son's sexuality should not be--ever, under any circumstances. I suppose when he's 18 he might make it an issue himself, but I'd advise him against it.


Quote:
Agreed, the Lemond days seem grander now... But can you be sure they were clean?


Undoubtedly individual athletes have been doping as long as there have been performance enhancing drugs. But precisely how long it has been the case that such doping is so widespread that a majority at the highest level either dope or are tempted to dope? Well, I've never researched it, but I suspect it has probably been longer than most of us think. I mean, Usain Bolt? Does anyone really believe he's clean? But going back in time, how about Carl Lewis?

So the answer is that I don't think Lemond doped, but who can really be sure? Since he's been one of Lance's harshest critics, the hypocrisy would be stellar. Greg, too, made a huge comeback after his career should have ended. It would have with ordinary mortals, right?
Tom Cutts
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In your mind, at which point does someone's private action become a matter of the public's business?
stoneunhinged
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That's a huge question.

When that private action breaks the law, it is potentially public business. (They have to get caught first, of course.)

When the person is a public figure, it may or may not be our business. Is it an elected official? A movie star? An athlete? A teacher? Is that person someone who has made a public claim of some sort (such as, "I have never taken illegal drugs.") Is that persona a role model by choice? Or do they prefer privacy? Does their private action violate the public trust in some way? And finally, does the public's right or interest to know outweigh any potential harm to innocent bystanders, such as family members?

I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all answer.

With Tiger Woods, for example, I do not think that the public had any "right" to know about his sex life. My desire to wear Nike only if it's advertised by a man of high moral integrity (admittedly a silly proposition, IMO) does NOT outweigh the fact that the man had a wife and children (and the friends of his wife and children) who should have been protected from what must have been an exceedingly humiliating situation. (And his children might suffer that humiliation the rest of their lives.) Tiger is a public figure, but he does not somehow symbolize marital fidelity as a part of his image. (Well, not anymore.)

With Lance Armstrong, for another example, who symbolizes iron determination, immense dedication, extreme talent and endurance, and who had for over a decade insisted that he did it without drugs, I think that the public does have an interest in knowing whether he has violated the rules of his sport, repeated lied to the public and misrepresented himself, bribed the organization which governs his sport. Also, as someone who currently heads an organization which raises tens of millions of dollars for cancer research each year, and as someone who publicly announced that he was considering running for governor in Texas, he is more than a famous athlete. His status as a public figure is quite different from that of Tiger Woods. Woods is a very successful, rich, and famous star athlete. Lance is an icon.

But you asked how this is in my mind. My mind changes sometimes about things like this. Right now--and only right now, for my mind might change--I'm inclined to think that the use of performance enhancing drugs should be allowed at the professional level. They're doing it anyway, so let's clean up the fraud and the lies and pretentions of innocence. Maybe we should put our resources into making sure kids don't do it.

But I dunno.

I'm just sad and angry.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Hey Stone, I think this old video captures some of your sadness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihUIPlLw2ZE

John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
muse
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I'm amazed, shocked that anyone should think the Tour was ever 'clean' in previous years. Although the substances involved change, of course.

The bottom line for me is that if you're going as fast as a speeding car down a hairpin bend in the Alps and still pedalling, that takes sheer guts and nerve, well over and above whatever unnatural things may be in your system. Even if you're just a domestique and doing the hack work for the team stars, the physical effort involved is massive. Anyone who was seriously planning to race without contemplating some some 'assistance' would be verging on madness, given the monstrous schedules regularly put on the riders. More rest days and less punishing back to back routes might help, but the product that sells is one of superhuman endurance, and I fear that what the riders are asked to do (now and in the past) is exactly that - beyond the scope of purely human capability.
abc
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Quote:
On 2011-05-27 07:02, stoneunhinged wrote:
That's a huge question.

When that private action breaks the law, it is potentially public business. (They have to get caught first, of course.)

When the person is a public figure, it may or may not be our business. Is it an elected official? A movie star? An athlete? A teacher? Is that person someone who has made a public claim of some sort (such as, "I have never taken illegal drugs.") Is that persona a role model by choice? Or do they prefer privacy? Does their private action violate the public trust in some way? And finally, does the public's right or interest to know outweigh any potential harm to innocent bystanders, such as family members?

I don't think there is any one-size-fits-all answer.

With Tiger Woods, for example, I do not think that the public had any "right" to know about his sex life. My desire to wear Nike only if it's advertised by a man of high moral integrity (admittedly a silly proposition, IMO) does NOT outweigh the fact that the man had a wife and children (and the friends of his wife and children) who should have been protected from what must have been an exceedingly humiliating situation. (And his children might suffer that humiliation the rest of their lives.) Tiger is a public figure, but he does not somehow symbolize marital fidelity as a part of his image. (Well, not anymore.)

With Lance Armstrong, for another example, who symbolizes iron determination, immense dedication, extreme talent and endurance, and who had for over a decade insisted that he did it without drugs, I think that the public does have an interest in knowing whether he has violated the rules of his sport, repeated lied to the public and misrepresented himself, bribed the organization which governs his sport. Also, as someone who currently heads an organization which raises tens of millions of dollars for cancer research each year, and as someone who publicly announced that he was considering running for governor in Texas, he is more than a famous athlete. His status as a public figure is quite different from that of Tiger Woods. Woods is a very successful, rich, and famous star athlete. Lance is an icon.

But you asked how this is in my mind. My mind changes sometimes about things like this. Right now--and only right now, for my mind might change--I'm inclined to think that the use of performance enhancing drugs should be allowed at the professional level. They're doing it anyway, so let's clean up the fraud and the lies and pretentions of innocence. Maybe we should put our resources into making sure kids don't do it.

But I dunno.

I'm just sad and angry.

REALLY??????
Lance Armstrong won a few races doping or not.
Tiger Woods was unstopable on the golf course while he kept more than 10 women happy and you call him just an athlete and Lance an Icon. How he kept 10 women happy without doping is a miracle in itself. The golfing just makes it extra special.
I expected more from you.
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2011-05-28 07:49, abc wrote:

Tiger Woods was unstoppable on the golf course while he kept more than 10 women happy and you call him just an athlete and Lance an Icon.


Good point.

:)
Woland
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Are you sure he really kept 10 women happy? More to the point, did those 10 women keep him happy?
abc
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What can I say?
If they were truly happy he wouldn't have been found out, right. Now if Armstrong was truly a champion, he wouldn't have been found out either. See where this is going.....
Our idols suck.
Woland
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You're right, abc, at least one of those women was ***extremely*** unhappy . . . .
Ray Tupper.
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A $10m fine. That's gotta hurt.
They're really hanging this cheat out to dry. With still one or two proceedings to follow, do you think he'll do the honourable thing and pay,
or wrap up a few businesses, declare bankruptcy, and ponce off into the sunset with a few quid hidden away?
I choose the latter.
What do we want?
A cure for tourettes!
When do we want it?
C*nt!
Ian McColl
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Who's lance armstrong??????
balducci
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On Feb 16, 2015, Ray Tupper. wrote:
A $10m fine. That's gotta hurt.

I doubt that it hurts him at all. Some estimates put his personal wealth at well over $100 million. And maybe insurance covers this piddling $10 million loss.

I never liked the guy. Not because he doped. Because he did his best to ruin lives of people who called him on it.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
tommy
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Like all fraud artists, the limousines, the private jets, the car collections all come screeching to a halt.
Stacey Keach should feature this scumbag on an episode of American Greed.
TonyB2009
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He is neither a cheat nor a scumbag. He played by the unofficial rules that were in place in cycling at the time. Lance did not invent doping. It was almost universal when he began cycling. He rose to the top because he was better than the other doped up cyclists.

In todays peloton, with far less dope, he would still rise to the top, because he is more talented. It is unfair to judge him by standards that did not apply in his sport.

To many of us he is still the greatest cyclist of all time, and a hero.
tommy
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All authors end up criminally insane; Just look for instance at that Jack Torrance.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Quote:
On Feb 17, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
He is neither a cheat nor a scumbag. He played by the unofficial rules that were in place in cycling at the time. Lance did not invent doping. It was almost universal when he began cycling. He rose to the top because he was better than the other doped up cyclists.

In todays peloton, with far less dope, he would still rise to the top, because he is more talented. It is unfair to judge him by standards that did not apply in his sport.

To many of us he is still the greatest cyclist of all time, and a hero.

Wrong. He rose to the top because he was a better doper than the others. He virtually reinvented it with crooked doctors, bribery, threats of violence, an entire army of criminals working for him to falsify prescription dates, perform mid race transfusions etc. He out cheated them. that's all he did. And lied to the world about it so he could enjoy a rock star lifestyle.
And threatened anyone who might bring down his crime ring.
He is undoubtedly the farthest thing from a hero in sports history.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Feb 17, 2015, TonyB2009 wrote:
He is neither a cheat nor a scumbag. He played by the unofficial rules that were in place in cycling at the time. Lance did not invent doping. It was almost universal when he began cycling. He rose to the top because he was better than the other doped up cyclists.

In todays peloton, with far less dope, he would still rise to the top, because he is more talented. It is unfair to judge him by standards that did not apply in his sport.

To many of us he is still the greatest cyclist of all time, and a hero.


I got to admit. I am totally surprised that I am in complete agreement with you on something.
Andrew Zuber
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He lied under oath when asked if he'd taken performance enhancing drugs. In January, he was given two traffic tickets after allegedly hitting two parked cars with his vehicle and then letting his girlfriend take the blame for it to avoid making news. A hero? Really?
"I'm sorry - if you were right, I would agree with you." -Robin Williams, Awakenings
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