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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I think we all knew that already. But at least that gives us something on which we can agree.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-09 08:37, Deepintrance wrote: I bought that book when it first came out in the "New" form a few years back. I started to read it. Then skimmed through most chapter and put it away. Its an awful book for someone to learn stage hypnosis from. Although its "quaint" in terms of it has a lot of old antiquated stuff in it. That is the only real value of the book. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
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On 2011-06-09 08:37, Deepintrance wrote: I believe most of us are well aware of where to find it. I think many also take it's purpose out of context. It was never met as a replacement for actual hypnosis, only to demonstrate something that appears to be similar to hypnosis without the actual mechanics. The type of act that was used by town to town scammers in the old days, or as an example of how to create a performance that resembles hypnosis that is not really hypnosis. Definitely nothing that should be used or considered as part of any initial hypnosis training. It is actually very outdated and offers little purpose. The only appeal it seems to have is to newbies seeking results without having to learn hypnosis or commit to actual training (imagine that). Trust me, I've seen this backfire terribly in today's more sophisticated times/audiences. This should not be a foundation for any type of a hypnosis show. |
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*Mark Lewis* V.I.P. 1325 Posts |
Mindpunisher. Ormond Mc'Gills book is not an awful one at all. In fact it is the best one of the lot. Just because it is not full of the sort of Scottish obscenity that you favour that does not mean the book is of no value. In fact I learned everything that I know from Ormond McGill. I have hardly looked at any other book on the subject. I taught myself from Ormond's work and it was all I needed.
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bobser Inner circle 4178 Posts |
Every story... tells a story.
Bob Burns is the creator of The Swan.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-09 16:46, Mark Lewis wrote: That explains a lot! ;-) Maybe you just conned yourself into thinking it was a good book? |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
I am with MP on Ormond McGill's book. Definitely not on the list of books I would recommend to someone starting out. Way too much stuff, and way too much of it is decades out of date. Sorry, Mark.
Mindpro, you are missing the potential of Dr Q and TIA. They are powerful routines when done right. And I find they work very well today. They are not a cheap scam. They are a useful tool when the conditions militate against a traditional show. Sometimes you have only a few minutes; sometimes the crowd are too inhibited because the boss is there, or their family are present. It is just another tool, and one I have found helpful at times.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Yes, I understand exactly how and when one would resort to this type of material. My point was these are not the types of resources that we should be directing anyone to that is new, trying to learn about and understand hypnosis, and is interested in proper training. Perhaps once you know what your doing, it may be useful, but not as a replacement for actual hypnosis. Again, we shoudn't mislead anyone to believe this is really hypnosis.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-06-09 16:55, bobser wrote: Well said.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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*Mark Lewis* V.I.P. 1325 Posts |
The McGill book has more useful information on hypnosis than any I have ever read. Too much information perhaps but anybody with any brain can sort out the wheat from the chaff. And as for "dated" I have always found that word to be the stupidest word in the dictionary. The book is not that old and has been updated recently anway. 90% of the routines therein can be done today quite effectively. And even if they can't surely a decent showman can adapt things to they are a bit more up to date. Not rocket science you know.
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Perhaps but there are FAR better ways to do it now. The book is a rehash of a very old publication with a few bits added. You said it was the best book youve read but you also say
>>>I have hardly looked at any other book on the subject. I taught myself from Ormond's work and it was all I needed.<<< So that means your references with regards to hypnosis are limited. You might need more if you were doing shows over here. Its getting worse over here --- every day I leave the house I see more and more shops bars closing down. |
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quicknotist Special user 888 Posts |
I've always been convinced he put out a couple of different versions of The Encyclopaedia. There's the version which is highly regarded and often recommended. Then there's the version I have.
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*Mark Lewis* V.I.P. 1325 Posts |
I have all of Ormond's books. I suppose there are really only two but the latest encyclopedia (for some odd reason a Welsh publication) combines both books with some added material. With regard to other books of course I have looked at them to some extent but didn't get excited over them for some reason. Possibly the best of the others is the one by Jerry Valley which has three different shows described. I consider that to be quite excellent. And of course Jerry Valley is given a bit of space in the latest Ormond book just mentioned.
I thought Jerry Valley gave a wonderful tip in the McGill book which no doubt all the detractors of the book have missed because they lack the ability to study things thoroughly. I know how to study a book with intensity so naturally I am able to derive benefit more quickly than the less intellectually gifted among us. This Valley idea is alone worth the price of the Mc'Gill book and I have not seen it mentioned in any other publication. Since I am now in a bad mood because of all the rude remarks made about the book I am not going to give this tip away until I feel that you have all improved yourselves. Come to think of it he gives two tips which are very valuable indeed. I have used both frequently and one of them in every show I do. The other one when necessary. I would have thought that all the silly people here who actually believe in hypnosis would have liked Ormond's book because it is very trance state orientated and written as if he actually believes in hypnosis (which I don't think he did from things I have heard) I once actually spoke to Ormond on the phone for a brief period. I thanked him for the knowledge he had given me through his wonderful books and he said "I am glad it has been useful to you" I also mentioned Paul Goldin who is actually mentioned a couple of times in Ormond's book and he told me to give Paul his regards. Oddly enough Paul had no idea that he had been in the book for about 30 years, he made no comment and just took the book from me and photocopied the relevant pages. When I told him Ormond sent his regards he remarked, "Oh, Mc'Gill? The American guy? Oh, he's good!" If Paul Goldin thought Ormond was good that is good enough for me. All these silly new hypnotist that are supposed to be immune from this alleged "dated" liability are usually gross, obscene at worst and bad taste at best. And they remove the "scientific" angle of presentation and make their shows look like a bunch of bad actors on stage doing silly things and many, many people in the audience are suspicious that the people are faking simply because that is what it looks like without the "scientific" angle. The ironic thing is that the person who least thinks that the people on stage are faking is often the hypnotist himself. By scientific angle I mean using lots of big words and treating the whole thing in a pseudo intellectual manner in your presentation expecially at the beginning of the show. But of course you have to mix the scientific angle with the entertainment factor. Paul Goldin had a spine chilling effect on his audiences as well as made them laugh. People in Ireland to this day talk about him in hushed tones. Other hypnotists go for "great big bag of laughs" approach and are nowhere near as effective. You need to get that spine chilling effect of amazement in an audience. Astonish as well as make them laugh. I first experienced that spine chilling effect when I saw Lorde Payne work. I literally gasped. There are too many lack of gasps with the supposed modern shows that are not "dated" enough. Some of this scruffy, obscene new generation of so called stage hypnotists need to sharpen up a bit and become a bit more old fashioned and stage hypnosis will garner more respect, even from hypnotherapists who would be less anti-stage shows if the subject was presented in a less frivolous and low working class manner. And the first step in this procedure is for the younger generation to exercise their few remaining brain cells and study the McGill material properly and with due thorougness. Ormond himself was the master of presenting a show in a scientific manner at the same time as keeping it entertaining. The rest of you should do likewise. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
I know a few hypnotists that trained with Mcgill. When I asked them about the experience they just smiled. They didn't rate it highly. Having said that I totally agree with you on the "gasps" and the mysterious side of hypnosis being played up. I have always worked on that side of things. I believe that is the most important part of the show.
As for people believing plants are used its because they can't get their head around the fact hypnosis is this powerful. They can't believe ordinary members of the public would ever do these things without being plants. Nothing to do with bad actors. Turning the whole thing into scientific lecture would bore the pants off most of the public over here. Although there might be a place for it in specific markets its unlikely those markets would book these types of shows. I think you guys over the pond are in a very fortunate position market wise at the moment. I don't think a scientific approach would have gone down well in the UK in my lifetime in hypnosis. It would've been booed off. We are just different over here. You should know that Mark no doubt it is one of the main reasons you moved away. You couldn't cut it here anymore. There might be two tips in the book. But it is a huge tomb you are better off placing your attention somewhere else where you can get a proper education. Have you ever thought about getting proper training? |
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*Mark Lewis* V.I.P. 1325 Posts |
Under no circumstances should a hypnotist get "special training". Some of the crappiest hypnotists I have ever seen have been specially trained. However, you must excuse me. No time to linger. I am going out to do a hypnosis show while the rest of you are chattering about it. While I am away try and figure out what I mean by "scientific slant" to a show. I am afraid Mind Punisher hasn't quite grasped it yet. You can put a scientific slant on a show in the sleaziest venue. I never said you had to give a whole lesson on nuclear physics. I mearly meant a slight scientific chatter in your patter so they think you are an expert. Coming on stage with funny haircuts as I have seen some awful young hypnotists do and doing stunts that would be more at place in a porn room does NOT make you look like an expert. It makes you look like a brothel keeper.
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mrkmarik Regular user New York 185 Posts |
Mark I knew you do love McGills stuff that's why I asked you to comment on Mesmerismus thread.
here is the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMstWLbmoOQ And they claim McGills Mysticism and Hypnotism of India is one of the main influences in their school of teachings. I spoke with some fellas who took their classes and they saying everything is for real. Posted: Jun 10, 2011 9:33am My grandma once was induced NONVERBALLY by Gypsy women in Russia very long time a go (at that time I ridiculed her ) |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Mark could you use less words please? You indeed have one thing in common with Ormond. You tend to drone on and on.
Lets sum it up and wrap it up.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
MarK the theatre venues I do shows in aren't sleazy. They are major venues in my city. But I also have done presentations and mind shows ( but not stage hypnosis shows ) for business people like Mercedes Benz.
My last four clients were all multi millionairs who wanted to improve their golf. Next week I have a meeting with the owner of a golf club that charges £60,000 to join. We are meeting to see if we can be mutually valuable to each other by presenting my "mind show" and extreme coaching programme. Among the members are top Movie Stars who fly in by helecopter just for a round of golf. Of course the PGA coaches hate me and more than likely will try and keep me out. |
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mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>Ormond himself was the master of presenting a show in a scientific manner at the same time as keeping it entertaining. The rest of you should do likewise.<<<
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The hypnotists I knew who attended his stage hypnosis training and one of his live shows in the mid 90s were respectable therapists. They weren't stage hypnotists. Yet even they said he was a lovely old bloke but his show was terrible as was the training. Although enjoyed it just because they could say they had met and trained with him. I met these guys on another therapy course I was attending at the time. Maybe if you had some real training in hypnosis you would understand why they said that? The scientific angle wouldn't go down well. In fact last year I did include a couple of lines in the first couple of shows talking about the power of hypnosis in marketing etc etc... I noticed it really just slowed things down and never really added anything. So I dropped it and stuck with the lines that were getting a strong response. You might get away with it in Canada but you would starve over here. that's not a bad thing Im glad your making a living over there. |
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*Mark Lewis* V.I.P. 1325 Posts |
By scientific angle I merely mean using lots of big words in your patter which don't mean anything and are merely a load of baloney. Which is basically what most of you are doing on this section come to that. Most of you use all sorts of meaningless blabber about hypnosis with lots of big words that nobody understands. And it is all very entertaining even though it is complete nonsense. I don't see why you can't do that here.
I do have a video of Ormond's show. It is indeed slow going. But he was in his eighties when he did it so it isn't surprising. However, some of the techniques he used were quite fantastic and it is the most educational video I have ever seen on stage hypnosis. It is a fantastic video, not for the entertainment but for the educational value. And no. I wouldn't starve in Britain. I am not the starving type. Posted: Jun 10, 2011 3:42pm And to answer Mrkmarik my only comment on that videoclip is that there are lots of daft people in the world and thank goodness for it. It does make it a bit easier to earn a living. |
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