On 2011-06-05 18:29, TonyB2009 wrote:

Just what we need, more (not to mention intentional) controversy.

Posted: Jun 5, 2011 7:28pm
I thought this was the type of topic that is not to be discussed here.

Tony. Who said Mark Lewis was absent? I am indeed a non-state theorist but I am hardly the type to get into arguments over it.

Actually I have known for ages that it is not social compliance although that is certainly part of it. I think it is more a bunch of daft people being under the delusion that they are under "hypnosis" but as I have mentioned already, I am not the argumentative type and am too shy and retiring to get into a discussion about it.

Hey! Stoppit! We're doing it again! We all agreed we wouldn't, but we're doing it again! Stoppit!
I think True-Gossiper is a plant. I think he's that Sheldrake lad (the brains in Headhacking). I've met him a couple times in saunas and he and T-G have similar foreheads.
Don't let them rip us apart (very clever). Stay firm. Stick together. Danny get booze, Craigie find some bigger words, Mindpunisher get some trunks. This time we'll be ready.

Bobser, what I mean is that I attain deep trance phenomena from things being stuck or unmoveable to full on hallucenations without the hypnotic sleep. I am totally convinced that there is no real difference between "state" hypnotism and "non-state" hypnosis, but I think that one can trump the other when it comes to ideas in therapy vs performance. I think it is much more impressive to a crowd to turn someone into a human statue while appearing to be perfectly normal than giving the suggestion while under a hypnotic sleep state then coming back, never the less much faster. I know some of you will say these are just suggestability tests but I think when you expand on that then it can be soooo much more in my oppinion. Do not get me wrong, I am not underminding full on hypnotic sleep, but I think that waking hypnosis is just so strange and phenomenal. I think that anyone that doesn't truely utalize a non-state style hypnosis in some form is really missing out on a great force for good never the less entertainment! From a magician's perspective look at it as a double lift, the simplest most unimpressive thing in magic to a magician, but it makes for the most powerful moments in all of magicdom to a spectator! I know I am new to hypnotism and not everyone is going to agree with me...if anyone but I am just endorsing my beliefs in hypnotism.

I don't really want to get into the discussion about whether hypnosis exists or not. It gets too complicated and heated. Besides it uses too many big words that are beyond my understanding and I can't be bothered getting my dictionary out.

However the original poster just wanted to know how the non-state belief arose in the first place. There is no harm in telling you that. It is just a story of how I got started in my sceptical attitude and should be looked on as nothing more. No point arguing about something that actually happened.

In truth I used to believe in it. The first stage hypnotist I ever saw was Lorde Payne who was quite a showman. I was shocked beyond belief and was convinced there was something in it. I then started to read Ormond McGills books on the subject which cemented my belief even further. It wasn't until years later I heard things which made me suspicious that Ormond didn't believe in it either.

Then I watched Barry Sinclair perform in Ireland. I believed it was real but my friend didn't. He was a bit sharper than me. After the show he said to me "This is a load of crap. It is great entertainment but he isn't hypnotising anyone" I argued with my friend and wasn't convinced.

Then I saw a second show of Barry's with the same friend. Again I thought it had to be real and leaned over to my friend and whispered "Well, now what do you say?" He simply turned to me and said "Watch Barry's throat" I had no idea what the hell he was talking about but I did indeed look at Barry's throat and realised that if he hadn't been a hypnotist he would have made a very good ventriloquist. His lips were not moving but his throat muscles were! I realised he was cuing the volunteer throughout!

That set the seed of suspicion in but I still thought that one faker didn't mean that everyone else was faking too. And I figured that even if Barry was faking one part of his act it didn't mean he was faking the whole thing.

And then I visited Blackpool and met up with an old grizzled show business pro who burst out laughing at me when I told him that I thought Lorde Payne could really hypnotise people. The guy was extremely cynical and couldn't stop laughing at me saying that everyone in Blackpool show business circles knew that hypnosis was a load of bunkum.

Then I read a devastating book which made a very good case that hypnosis was a load of old hooey and got more suspicious still. It is called "They Call it Hypnosis" by Robert Baker. But that wasn't all. I came across a hynotherapy book by a chap called Peter Blythe who also said he had no belief in hypnosis. He mentioned that his father was a hypnotist named Henry and I suddenly realise who his father was. Henry Blythe was a noted hypnotist of his time and I had actually met him. I remembered that magician Bobby Bernard called him "a real con man" and this fueled my suspicions further.

Then I heard a tale of how Ormond Mc'Gill let slip at a convention in an unguarded moment that he though hypnotism was a load of old cobblers too. Only anecdotal evidences I grant you but it didn't encourage me to believe in hypnosis. Then one day when I was recording a psychic audio cassette for Martin Breese of London in 1991 he astonished me by saying "Gil Boyne sat in the same chair you are sitting in now and he told me that hypnotism was a load of baloney" As most of you will know Boyne was a leading figure in the world of hypnosis.

Now this post is getting too long so I will split it up and put the rest into another post.

Posted: Jun 6, 2011 2:41am
And to continue where I left off.

But now for the real convincer. I had got to know legendary stage hypnotist Paul Goldin in Dublin. Paul was mentioned in the Ormond McGill book a couple of times and was renowned as a legendary and fantastic though controversial hypnotist. I had read learned articles that he wrote on hypnosis and hypnotherapy and was convinced he meant every word he said. However, I was getting very suspicious about the whole thing and wanted to ask him directly but couldn't think of a tactful way to do it. Finally my opportunity came when he said to me, "I hope you don't believe in this psychic stuff you do. If you do, you're dead." As it happens I DO believe in "this psychic stuff" but that is another argument for another time. However, I thought "this is my opportunity" and asked him, "What about hypnosis? If you believe in that are you dead too?"

That did it. I have never seen a man look so shifty in my life. He didn't answer and looked everywhere except directly at me. I persisted and looked him right in the eye and asked him straight out “Are the people on stage really hypnotised? Are they really in some sort of altered state of consciousness or are they just kidding me and themselves?” My guru again started to look uncomfortable and become evasive in his answers. However, I persisted and he gave in. He looked shiftily at his receptionist outside in the hallway then closed the door so she wouldn’t hear the conversation. He then looked at me and proceeded in a few sentences to explain the key to stage hypnotism. And it was probably the most profound lesson I had ever heard or will hear on the subject. This is what he said. “Look, I was a pioneer in this field. I was number one for about 30 years. In that 30 years I am quite sure I never hypnotized a single person on stage!”

This was quite a shock to me and although I had pushed for the answer I was nevertheless stunned to receive it. One of the most legendary stage hypnotists of all time had just, in so many words, told me he had been faking it for 30 years! After I recovered I asked him “Well, in that case, how do you make the people do all those crazy things?” He stared at me and then uttered the key revelation which opened up a new career for me. “You manipulate them, don’t you?” You do, of course “manipulate them” and I’ve been manipulating them ever since.

Again I am not relating this story to argue about what hypnosis is. I am just trying to let you know where I am coming from in regard to this. The original poster wanted to know how our belief system originated. Now you know mine at least.

The posts are too long Marc. But I did get to the part about Barry the ventroloquist. I thought that was funny. When I was doing shows at Edinburgh Festival last year someone thought I was fake because two of the volunteers had the same colour of underpants. They shouted out they were plants. Like I go around and buy matching pairs of underpants.

I saw Barry whisper in the ear just before he stuck someone to a chair before the main show started while doing a magic trick. He really looked stuck but really don't know how that was done. Ive never tried it.

I liked Barry although he took ages to get going.

"Manipulation" "hypnosis" "social compliance" its all semantics.

Posted: Jun 6, 2011 7:34am
This is an old topic worth revisiting. Lee Darrows posts are very interesting with regards to Kreskin and Randi withdrawing their challenges with regards to hypnosis.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=22

So there y'go. It's all total rubbish. Why wasn't I told earlier? Grrrrrr!!!!!!

MP, I will steal that idea of dressing all my stooges in matching underwear. It would be a great way of fostering team spirit. Isn't it amazing what people will convince themselves of.

I know what you mean about Barry being slow. I once saw him do a solid hour of comedy (old gags!) before he even mentioned hypnosis. That night he did a three hour show. And it was brilliant.

I did enjoy his show though he did two nights that were half full. from that I came to conclusion just one show a week would sell out. I walked a couple of hundred yards and booked the theatre a few months later and I was right!

I thought it might be better to post Lee's post here in case some missed it-------

The initial study that proved hypnosis actually exists as a discreet and physically demonstrable brain state was cited in the magazine The New Scientist, newscientist.com in 2005. further studies have shown that the study was viable and verifiable.

So Randi was wise in withdrawing his challenge (as Kreskin did a couple of years ago) and Penn & Teller have been proven to be wrong as well - as an aside, their savaging of hypnotist Wendi Freisen on their show was very inaccurate - she never claimed to "have a cure for cancer" as they claimed, the claims about breast enhancement actually originally came from a study done at Harvard University and verified at a number of other medical colleges including Stanford. They quoted her out of context (using a journalistic technique called "selective instance" which uses only SOME of the words said, out of context to make it sound like she said something that is completely opposite to what she actually said!

Of course, they also claimed that second hand cigarette smoke is harmless, too! See the following link about that!

today.reuters.com/news Where the Centers for Disease Control and the Surgeon General's Office issue the results of their study that states, unequivocally, that second hand smoke is a serious health threat!

Proving that the name of their show is very appropriate - though maybe not for the reasons that they initially thought!

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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You can read more on the rest of the thread... This forum misses Lee.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=22

P&T's t.v. show like their live show is soley as entertainment. Anyone who takes it as fact, information or as an authority also gets their news from the tabloids. MP is right they did put Wendi through the wringer.

It was Lee that's said it! Its one of his old posts! The rest of the thread is worth reading too.

Mindpro was refering to Penn and Teller.

>>>>>MP is right they did put Wendi through the wringer. <<<<<<


;-)


Yes but it was Lee that said they put Wendi through the wringer not me since it was a copy of his post!

I stand corrected, either way Wendi got more than I believe she signed up for.

I just wanted to make sure Lee got the credit for his great set of posts on that thread!

They simply had an agenda for the show. They fufilled it.

It was interesting entertainment. They also really made college hypnotist CJ Johnson look terrible too in that episode. They definitely had an agenda and fulfilled it.

That's how they make a living by making themselves look good by simultaneously making others look bad. Kind of a sad existence really considering they are talented magicians and shouldn't need to do it. Plus most of it is Bs anyway.

It is entertaining though.