Actually the evidence is pretty clear to me about a state. However I can't account for your perception. If you can't see the evidence then YOU are right. There is no state, no joy no happiness states don't exist........just responses or perhaps I'm just imagining it. If I called your mother a nasty you might respond but of course you wouldn't change your state would you? We change states constantly all the time.

As the Pet scans point out a brain behaves differently while hypnotised it shows the same activity while hallucinating colours as a brain seeing real colours in the ordinary waking state. However it does not behave this way with those not hypnotised. See two different states. But hypno kid you intepret that any way you like. You are entitled to bath in your own reality to lounge around in your own trance.

If you want to see evidence go find it. But I suspect evidence is the last thing you want to see. But the good news is just go see what you want to see. Its your head. that's the great thing about your mind you casn use it any way you want so go have some fun.

And if Ant is right its just imagination you would still be in a different state from where you were before you were put into a state of imagination. Unconconscious responses to suggestions for m someone else to the point of seeing hallucinations or having no control over your body is not the same state you were in before this happened.

If it was then you would respond this way when anybody spoke to you everyday. But you don't it is a different state.

I'm trying to be nice to the underclass on here for a change but you get no thanks.

Now if you don't mind Im going to something more useful Ive wasted too much time on this thread. See what you want from this post its my last one on the subject.

How do you think volunteers feel with the more extreme conditions? The cash is just a very light experience!

Posted: Jun 8, 2011 9:20am
State definitition There's a whole load of definitions for the word state. But here is the closest one to what this thread is about..

1 the particular condition that someone or something is in at a specific time:the state of the company's finances we're worried about her state of mind

A particular condition that someone is in at a particular time. That seems to clear it up for me.

If someone is responding to suggestions in ways they wuodn't normally do then they are in an "altered state". I don't see the problem with that?

Pet scans also show the state is physical and can be observed.

Welcome. I said that 2 pages ago! And no aparantly only a few agree with "who cares".

Yes. And the ironic thing is that you believe in one side and I believe in the other. And yet we are BOTH saying "who cares"! Are we the only ones here who are thinking this? Surely not?

Mindpunisher is at who cares. So is mindpro. I think Quicknotist, and Ant are on the same page also. Ant likes these discussions though.

It is an old and pointless arguement.

Guys, this prolonged thread is part of my strategy for a well-paid summer. I will keep going on about grabbing the money until Anthony puts up ten grand. Then I'll snap it.

The only problem is, my fingers probably won't obey my brain again.

MP, my point is that even when I couldn't get my fingers to take Anthony's money I was wide awake and chatting to him. I was in no weird state, but my initial compliance with him had become something automatic that I was not able to overcome.

In fact the chat we had was about you bragging online that if I came to Ireland it would not work Cheeky but had to be done.

It has nothing to do with light of course as there is no deep just automatic.

Anthony

If there is just automatic how come in order to reach the "deeper" states you need conditioning? Catalepy laughing and forgetting a name are all light stages of hypnosis for stage. The latter ones can't be done without going through these? I have never ever seen an example of this or heard of anyone who says otherwise.Which really surprises me why Tony has to condition his volunteers. If hypnosis doesn't exist don't condition them.

Tony that's the problem appearing to be wide awake and chatting doesn't mean you weren't in a different state from where you were before it just means you have a very limited idea of what state actually is. You are happy or sad but still wide awake apparrently. But these are still two separate states.

The problem is that you and Ant are hanging on to the notion of hypnosis being a metaphysical state or abnormal or supernatural state when in actual fact hypnosis is a normal every day natural state. You are arguing against a refererence that we all agree on. Even if social compliance is one of the main factor involved with hypnosis. You are still in a "state of compliance".

But you were indeed in a different state from your everyday state. You don't experience catalepsy on a daily basis when someone gives you a suggestion do you? This would be seen as an "altered" state. A temporary condition outith your normal everyday functioning.

Pet Scans show that the brain acts differently when in this state than a normal everyday state.

You argument shoud really be that hypnosis is not a metaphysical or abnormal state. But it sure is a state one of many you experience on an ongoing moment to moment basis.

As for automation ---- just about everything you do is automatic very little is conscious although you might think it is. Typing this reply involves god knows how many muscles and automatic brain functions to write you couldn't do it consciously its all unconscious. Even your beliefs and stand point on this argument is automatic.

MP, Paul Daniels and others get great reactions from the electric chair routine. People get stuck and get electric shocks, and all through cueing. No induction or anything. Yet to the audience it looks like genuine mind power. Others get impressive reactions from the Dr Q routine. I have done that one myself, and it works. Where does that fit in?

Pseudo, not hypnosis.

There is a difference between someone recieving a real shock than being hypnotised to feel one. Again I don't know what your experience is with doing shows. But I do know the reactions and responses from those Ive had on stage couldn't be got just by cueing. Years at drama school couldn't get them to act so convincingly or automatically or even so quickly.

I don't know the DrQ routine so I can't comment. But you now at least have an inclination of what hypnotised volunteers might be experience at least in the light stages.

Paul Danials routine is great but its not a hypnosis show.

Again PET scans show hypnotised volunteers brains act differently to those that haven't been. There are two different states that can be observed. There is such a state or condition where suggestion affects the brain on a physical level not a pretend or go along level.

Genuine hypnosis is a physically observable state.

Hi Kid,
There might be an argument against me calling it a state. Although I do believe it is of course I could be wrong and I'd be happy to accept that. I don't want to win, at all. I merely wish to KNOW.
However, to call it a response is way too unimaginative for me. Too simple. I mean
"lift your hand up for me will you?" and they lift their hand up, that is a response. But to suggest it is the same as anything I would do with a hypnotee would be.... silly. Illogical and totally unscientific.

But what's the difference? I find that by the end of a Dr Q routine, all my subjects are doing exactly what I ask them to do. They are responding to the suggestions. As a stage hypnotist the final result is the same. In theory there may be a difference, but in practice there is little.

It's like an apple falling from a tree. We can call it gravity along with everyone else, or call it earth magnitism. The end result is the same; a bruised apple.

From just about everything I have ever seen about street or impromtu hypnosis it almost always involves light stage hypnosis. Sticking a hand to a table, catalepsy forgetting a name. Even when they do induce hallucinations in the rare footage Ive seen the responses are always very mild so I guess its no surprise that they don't have distinctions in place for the light to deep trance. Its obvious that this part of the puzzle is still missing for them.

Ive never seen any of your shows Tony perhaps your volunteers do go a long perhaps they aren't hypnotised?

By the end perhaps they are in hypnosis. Perhaps DrQ is really another induction. I don't know I would have to see you do it. But that doesn't change the fact that hypnosis does exist and can be observed as a physical state different from an everyday wakened state. What you are asking is another question.

Gravity is a bad analogy since it can't be faked hypnosis can be.

The more Tony says or explains about his approach or experience to hypnosis, the more I'm thinking he's never really done real stage hypnosis or achieved what we are talking about when we refer to hypnosis or the hypnotic state. Dr. Q, TIA and even someone else's recent suggestion of just telling them to go along, are all pretend hypnosis, and not what I speak about when I discuss hypnosis. Just because they follow your lead, cue or suggestion to "pretend" or "play along" does not make it actual hypnosis.

Seriously what is the difference?

In one response they are doing what you are telling them to consciously. In the electric chair all the instructions are on the Kleenex box. It is simply someone acting.

In the other, they may or may not be doing it on purpose. Are you saying that all of them are acting? Faking it in some way?

LOL. Very true Danny. BUT there was this one time in Inverness, where my subject had dyslexia. You didn't want to be there.

Mindpro, I do very solid shows with all the classic phenomenon - amnesia, hallucination, the works. I just interpret what is happening differently than you do. I do not believe trance is needed in a stage show, and I do not believe it is part of what is going on.
And if you know what you are doing, you can get to the same place through Dr Q or TIA.
Ormond McGill himself said that Dr Q often led to the same end result as an induction.

MP, I will concede that if the science shows that hypnosis is a distinct state with it's own brain activity, then that is so. But I believe that is more relavent to therapy than to stage shows. Our job in a stage show is to get the subjects acting out in the proper entertaining way. And whether that is done by inducing them, cueing them, or Dr Qing them, doesn't really seem to matter.

Why would it be more relevant? A therapist job is to solve the clients problem is it not? Not really to induce trance. In fact if you work with clients in the right way they will never even care if they were hypnotised or not they will never even question it. They care about the results.

If you are producing amnesia hallucinations and the usual amplified responses then the chances are you are hypnotising them. Your suggestions cueing whatever you want to call them will be most likely activating parts of the brain that would normally see or experience the things being suggested. that's why their responses seem so real because their brains are acting if it is real along with all the physiological changes. This is hypnosis you are cueing people into trance. How you interpet it won't change anything.

If it were only just cueing then you would never need to condition them. you have said in previous posts you take them through the varies levels of conditioning. If you say you arejust cuing them why bother with that?

You are at least some of the time HYPNOTISING them Tony.

Posted: Jun 8, 2011 7:02pm
As for Randi and Kreskin .... why do you think they removed their money challenge for proof of hypnosis?

They are both professional skeptics that "play along" to get publicity etc. Its what they do its who they are I doubt it even involves their true beliefs half the time.

Posted: Jun 8, 2011 7:03pm
I would say deep hypnosis is more relevant to stage than therapy.

The difference is one is actual hypnosis performed by a professional hypnotist, the other is fake, not real, not actual responses from someone responding to the performance suggestions in the proper hypnotic state. {Plain and simple.

And I beg to differ with you in that the responses and results are the same. Not even close.

The Dr Q routine can be found on Page 509 of The New Encyclopedia of Stage Hypnotism by Ormond McGill.