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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts 
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I don't moan. I don't claim the guy targets actual gambling. I just say the promotional video is poor. Am I allowed that?
Maybe you have never performed gambling demonstrations? I did. Loads. Trust me, you can't sell all and everything to the audience! There are always some card players. There are often one Magician or two. Not to mention the inevitable smart alec. Of course, it depends the public in front of you, average guys or card players only; but as a general rule I'd say that even if you don't need to be Steve Forte, you have to be consistent, credible and up to date (sometimes even entertaining). I can tell you 99% of the people I've met would see nothing out of a center deal performed by Jason England or by some guys we have watched here. But I bet you that a 2 digits percentage would say to Antonio that they see the card isn't coming from the top. Again, I talk for myself, my personal experience. Some people just wanna be entertained though. You may even drop the deck during the show they would hardly notice. Some don't even know what a card game is. Maybe that's the people to whom demonstration moves are for? Thus, if this one fits their needs, it's cool. Again, I just talk about the video. Someone posts a link here, in the Gambling Spot. I give a "gambling" advice. At least, mine. |
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Maitre D Veteran user 339 Posts
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Yes, it is not deceptive. That is the point.
Do this particular technique as you're saying something like "and a gambler can even deal the Aces right out of the center. See?" (Open hand to show the break) If what you wanted was the audience to think your center deals are amazing, then secretly position the Aces every 4th and deal them out, all the while claiming they're centers. This is how it works in magic. This is why it's a good demonstration move. It accomplishes the task of exposing the ability to deal from the center. |
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The Dowser Special user Canada 763 Posts
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The book includes "effects" using this technique... so then shouldn't it be a little deceptive, at least?
Why the sudden lowering of standards? The demonstration I saw was poor at best. Perhaps the technique has value which is recognized by those familiar with it, but this is not apparent from the video. If a better showing can be made of this technique, then I would wait until I see it. Until then, it just points up the fact that selling magic is a bigger industry than performing it. |
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Maitre D Veteran user 339 Posts
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It is certainly possible (and probably very likely) that the author has different ideas in mind in terms of how authentic his technique is, in a true gambling context. He's a young magician - go figure. However the experts who were quoted on this work clearly understand and express that this move is limited to gambling demonstrations.
I absolutely agree that this is not an ideal center deal technique when aiming for deception. The experts who were quoted also acknowledge this by strictly mentioning its relevancy only to gambling demonstrations. If I had to demo a center deal to people, wanting to not expose my real center deal, I would very likely use Antonio's technique. |
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-07 21:56, Maitre D wrote: Perhaps that point should have been made at point of sale.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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popcalinda Veteran user 336 Posts
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Maybe it is good technique and idea for doing centers, and maybe that guy can not perform it clear and deceptive as we except to see?!
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-07 23:58, Maitre D wrote: The word “disingenuous” was used in this thread. I might use a somewhat harsher word. There is a big difference between a gambling “demonstration” and a gambling “exposé.” This is not being marketed in an ethical manner.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts
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The problem is, this is being touted as "the real work"...from the ad...
The bolding is mine... "Finding the Center is a treatise on the world's most elusive sleight: the center deal. Often talked about and seldom attempted, this move has become the stuff of legends. Seemingly from nowhwere, Italian author Antonio Zuccaro has emerged as one of the leading exponents of the sleight, and he has devoted his life to perfecting this one move. Now he is sharing the real work with you." "If you have aspirations to find the perfect center deal, Antonio's handling is the real deal." Sorry, I think the ad is deceptive to the true student who is seeking genuine information about this technique. Brian
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts
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OK, the guy does it poorly. I think we can go a bit further now though.
What about the technique itself? Is is a good one? Has someone learned it? I'd like a review of the technique. Is it a new idea or a variation? Maybe someone does it very well? The fact the guy doesn't demonstrate it nicely has maybe nothing to do with the potential of the technique. Looks like to me he has small hands, for instance... |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 11:26, AMcD wrote: As I stated earlier, I think it is a very poor attempt of a variation of Andrew Wimhurst's The Centre Deal from Down Under Deals. Wimhurst does the take much more toward the front of the deck though, and he pushes the top card over for cover.
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 11:26, AMcD wrote: Mr. McDonald, You are being a true gentleman in your comments and perhaps I have a lesson in civility to learn from you. Having said that, bblumen’s post preceding yours makes the seminal point: the marketing for this book is inaccurate at best and blatantly misleading at worst. As bblumen wrote, it is being touted by the sellers as the “real work.” This was contradicted by a post in this thread, from one of the sellers, that the deal was meant to be a demonstration and not even with an intent to be the real work (“Yes, it is not deceptive. That is the point.”). Again, I will put forward the notion that there are profound differences between “demonstrations” and “exposés.” This goes beyond the merits of the video itself or the skill-set of the person performing the deal. It is about selling with higher standards of integrity.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts
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@ Maitre D:
Once again, I will quote Stephen Hobbs, writing in Modus Operandi - The Magic of Jack Carpenter... Keep in mind, this is from a book that is almost twenty years old. I would contend that today's audiences are even more savvy. "...most magicians are not gamblers [snip] Relatively few have gambled in a modern card room, let alone tested their ideas and techniques under fire. [snip] "Jack has learned that if you are going to talk about gambling in public, you will quickly meet individuals who play cards regularly- poker in particular. These individuals are generally familiar with card-room etiquette and often have considerable gambling knowledge. [snip] "If a seasoned gambler feels that the information you are imparting is impractical or erroneous, he is likely to point this out. [snip] "If you wish to be perceived as a gambling expert, however, you must be prepared to go one step further and demonstrate your knowledge and command of real gambling technique." If you want to talk the talk, be prepared... Regards... Brian
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 11:51, panlives wrote: Usually I show great respect to everyone providing NEW material. Card cheating material is more often than not always the same! I own dozen of books, I've read even more. I've watched probably 100+ commercial videos (ranging from masters like Steve Forte to complete crap I wouldn't dare to name here). It's always and always the same stuff. Very often outdated, very often unpractical for today's games, too many times "magician" related, etc. Just for instance, Texas Hold'Em is the big rush for 12 years now in Europe, how many products have been issued about it? 2-3? I'm not even sure there are 3! And Magicians still demonstrating 5 card Draw during their show... See what I mean? I'm still looking for some more though. Every time something new is released, I'm very interested. Besides, it's a lot of work for releasing something, then, the minimum is to respect the work done. The problem is, IMHO, to get NEW or little known ideas. For instance, I love the second deal, but once there are 150 books/booklets/videos available about it, well, what's the point to make a 151st one? The center deal is not that much documented. OK, Marlo, Vernon, Maze, etc. But, frankly, one of the best material is not that old: Jason's one! I wouldn't bet there are more than 20 good sources for the CD. Thus, if that guy releases a nice idea, a brand new variation, well, I would like it. As long as something new comes out, it's great. Unfortunately, not everything is great or deserves credit. That's why we need reviews, we ask questions, etc. Exposes vs Demonstration? Well, it's something I have never understood! When a Magician has got a "gambling" act, the point is to entertain. He doesn't have to follow Las Vegas procedures, he has to make the audience happy. I have no problem with that. As long as he doesn't claim it's real stuff. The second someone says "look how gamblers do", "I'm a expert, look", etc. If the guys isn't serious he just looks ridiculous. It's my opinion. What's the point to sell crap? What's the point not to be serious when you have 99% chances a true card player is in the audience? To me, when you are clever, you know what you do, you know what public you target, you know what you have to say. You know the limits. But there always will be someone demonstrating cardsharp moves using one shuffle and no cut. He knows the risks  . |
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 12:43, AMcD wrote: The Maze center deal (and bottom) is the one I have practiced for almost fifteen years. In my view, there is none better. To the other snippet of your post I quoted... Bravo! Regards... Brian
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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bblumen Special user Baltimore 987 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-07 23:58, Maitre D wrote: If you have the capability to execute a real and convincing center deal, you would not expose anything.
"Lulling the minds of your company is more important than dazzling their eyes." Ed Marlo
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-07 18:32, AMcD wrote: Hey where's my book. :-( . AMcD let me know what I have to do in order to get one of your books. Respectfully, Doc |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 11:26, AMcD wrote: I would like to state one thing readers, this guys work is being critiqued too harshly in my opinion. Why? The camera view is from the top which would make any person no matter how perfect they deal look bad. People sitting at a card table would not see this view while playing therefore his work will pass at a card table. Oh and one more thing for the record, his take looks very similar if not exactly like that of Andrew Wilmhurt. Maybe, just maybe this is why they did a write up and commented on his center deal. Listen, I'm not writing this statement to say that I'm right and ya'll are wrong, I just wanted to add that this angle view should be considered. Respectfully, Doc |
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Unknown419 Inner circle 1321 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 13:01, bblumen wrote: On behalf of Gene Maze being my 1st teacher I would like to thank you in his place for the kind words but to be honest with all of you his center didn't look much better than what you are seeing and as my teacher I worshiped this guy. Respectfully, Gene Maze's Student Doc |
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 13:16, bblumen wrote: Exactly! I can hide a lot of my “real” work by performing awful moves. Not sure what the point would be… They are basically charging $30 for a book that purports to show the real work on the Center Deal and in fact shows a completely unconvincing move that is patently, transparently suspicious.
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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panlives Inner circle 2087 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-06-08 14:05, Unknown419 wrote: I will quote, again, one of the sellers: “Yes, it is not deceptive. That is the point.”
"Is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time." "The dog did nothing in the night-time." "That was the curious incident," remarked Sherlock Holmes. |
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Posted: Jun 8, 2011 01:39 am 
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