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Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On 2011-06-18 18:11, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On 2011-06-17 16:18, Avrakdavra wrote:

Maybe if the banks had not been essentially forced by various government geniuses (always ready to spend or risk someone else's money)to lend to lots of people who had no reasonable expectation of meeting their mortgage obligations, there would not be so many foreclosures, nor would the banks be so leery about lending more money.



I keep hearing this said a lot but I have yet to have anyone back up this statement with any kind of evidence. I think it's one of those things someone heard someone say, or thought they heard someone say and then they told someone else without ever checking to see if the statement was true. So if someone could find actual evidence that the Government actually forced banker to make bad loans I'd be very interested in seeing it. Until that time I'm going to have to go with the fact that the Banks voluntarily made questionable loaned as they were just making too much money doing so by not only bundling them and selling them to other financial institutions but also make bets against them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/24/business/24trading.html

It was the private banks that trashed the economy, not the Government nor the poor. Deregulation and the abolishment of the Glass-Stiegal act allowed banks and other financial institutions to make some very questionable and dangerous investments.


Here is a suggested reading for you Payne. Written by a New York Timesj business reporter and columnest Gretchen Morgenson. She spells it out with her co author in a new book called "Reckless Endangerment". It is stunningly clear who caused the mess. I suggest you read it.

I will stipulate that you already think she is disgruntled, and paid off by large banks, and has no credentials that you think are of value.

Read the book and then spin it for me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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I think you need to reread her book if you think she is excusing the banks or lenders. (Not saying that you do, but from what you said it sort of sounds as though you might.) Yes, the co-authors of the book put a lot of blame on Fannie Mae and congress and regulators. But:

---
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-tic......570.html

Interviewer: Who comes to mind, who are the people who caused this crisis?

Greta: Well, of course you know there were so many, the banks, the lenders, the securitizers [on Wall Street] ...
---

As the article going along with the interview (and the interview itself) notes, "no one forced Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers to leverage themselves 50 to 1, or AIG to write $3 trillion wroth of credit default swaps". I think that was Payne's point. No one forced the banks to do this. The banks did everything they could to get in on it on their own. Which is a point made in the interview by one of the co-authors.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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I would be far more interested in it if you actually read the book in question. I am really tired of hearing others opinions of what others opinions of the book are. That is by FAR the most frustrating thing about the internet and Google. Nobody bothers to read books any more. I guess it is not a shock.

Really is that what you do? Get your information about books by a quick Google of the author and find interviews about what they say about it and what others say? And then post it as some sort of perceived counter arguement, to an arguement I have not even yet made? Oh lord the internet is a facinating place.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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Why are you so defensive about what the authors themselves have to say?

Danny, it was Morgenson and Rosner themselves (the co-authors!) who said that the banks did everything they could to get in on it on their own!

Of course, yes, they also put enormous blame on Fannie Mae and congress and the regulators (as I said before). But they did not excuse the banks, or say they were completely innocent.

I get the impression that you only read (or remember) the parts of the book that fit your own preconceived ideas.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-06-19 15:24, balducci wrote:

Of course, yes, they also put enormous blame on Fannie Mae and congress and the regulators (as I said before). But they did not excuse the banks, or say they were completely innocent.

Excerpts from the book itself:

---
Johnson's tactics were watched closely and subsequently imitated by others in the private sector, interested in creating their own power and profit machines. Fannie Mae led the way in relaxing loan underwriting standards, for example, a shift that was quickly followed by PRIVATE LENDERS. [emphasis mine]

Eliminating the traditional due diligence conducted by lenders soon became the playbook for financial executives across the country. Wall Street, always ready to play the role of the enabler, provided the money for these dubious loans, profiting mightily.

Regulators across the country were either beaten back or lulled into complacency by the banks they were supposed to police.
---

My point being, the book did not excuse or paint the bankers as innocent victims. They were totally complicit.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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I did not EXCUSE ANYONE! I am saying that yea they all are at fault. It was and still is one giant ponsi scheme!

I am offended that you get all your opinions about a book from every source you can find, other than bothering to read the book itself. If you read it IN CONTEXT you would see what I mean. I do not say you are wrong, hell no, but I do say you scratch the surface only. It is frustrating when the only thing people do is Google whatever and call it research. I am having trouble adjusting to the age of the internet.

Oh and by the way YOU are assigning me an opinion. That also is annoying.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
balducci
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Quote:
On 2011-06-19 15:56, Dannydoyle wrote:

I am offended that you get all your opinions about a book from every source you can find, other than bothering to read the book itself. If you read it IN CONTEXT you would see what I mean. ... It is frustrating when the only thing people do is Google whatever and call it research. I am having trouble adjusting to the age of the internet.

That is in your mind. I mean, you are making assumptions I will not waste any further time with.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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Reread my posts, Danny. I assigned you no opinion.

Payne said "It was the private banks that trashed the economy, not the Government nor the poor."

You insinuated in your subsequent post that there was more to it than than, and that "Reckless Endangerment" makes it clear who was at fault. You also went on to suggest that Payne would not believe it, and stipulated that Payne thinks Greta must have been paid off by the banks. Your own words there certainly suggested (to any casual forum reader) that the banks got off rather easily in the book. Otherwise, why would Payne (or anyone) imagine the banks must have paid her off?

Because of the above I wrote:

"I think you need to reread her book if you think she is excusing the banks or lenders. (Not saying that you do, but from what you said it sort of sounds as though you might.)"

I was not assigning you an opinion, but I was confused as to what yours was. Your own words made it somewhat ambiguous to decipher, to say the least.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Dannydoyle
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I am saying that the people at fault are legion, and quite prominant to this day, and can be found in any political party you choose to turn over.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2011-06-19 16:53, Dannydoyle wrote:
I am saying that the people at fault are legion, and quite prominant to this day, and can be found in any political party you choose to turn over.


A step forward...
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Steve_Mollett
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Quote:
On 2011-06-18 11:24, Dannydoyle wrote:
I think you are way off, but yea someone else can do that research if they desire to find out the truth. But libs have never been that interested in a truth they can't rhyme and put on a bumper sticker or cheer.


and a step back...
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Dannydoyle
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Yea I am trying to dislodge people from just thinking what they read on bumper stickers Steve. Know what I mean? How much value is finding someoness opinion you agree with, and seeing what THEY say about a book and just posting that?

Much more can be learned from READING THE BOOK. If we are ever going to get rid of extremes, and if we are ever going to just have an honest discussion of simple facts, it can not be done without reading the information itself. If the author seems biased in some way, then sure but lets at least take the time to read the information before we start having opinions. This is my problem with Google and the internet. Who would have thought that the worst casualty would be the ability to read on a medium which reading is required!?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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