|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] | ||||||||||
Marcus.magic Veteran user 359 Posts |
Ok Dennis but here where are the substancial differences between the Tora version ( arm or body)compared to the Incisi-vision?
|
|||||||||
magic patagonia Special user 570 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-25 16:55, Dennis Loomis wrote: My thesis about the origin of the acrimony on this thread: When you don't use the correct word to present a new product or anything, people can feel that you are trying to fool them...a lamentable misunderstanding because I'm 100% sure that this wasn't the objective of the manufacturers...but I'm sure that this was the origin of the acrimony on this thread. I think the manufacturers of Incisi-Vision made the mistake of present an old principle as something new invented by them. And here I disagree with you about the use of the word "invention". Personally I consider this an important and powerful word and inmediatly multiply my attention when I hear it or read it. And by the results on this thread I can see that is not only me. I think that the real invention of the manufacturers is the Incisi-Vison as a whole...including all the concept, performance features and design behind it. But not the principle by itself. In other words,and using your example: their mistake was to declare the screws as their invention. |
|||||||||
Rudy Sanchez Special user 907 Posts |
[quote]On 2011-07-26 03:03, magic patagonia wrote:
Quote:
My thesis about the origin of the acrimony on this thread: Mr. Dave Pavlov asked me to post this email............ "Hey Rudy!  I would like Your help again with the posting of this e-mail... Between my full time status with "Magic Ventures" multiple Custom Illusion Deadlines, and my own Magical side projects under "Ultra Custom", I've been trying to finalize (hopefully in the not to distant future) my own web site, with an acceptable e-mail address that "The Magic Café" requires for membership.  The following is a brief summary of the legal and proprietary nature behind my development of the "InCisi-Vision"...  It's now been 6 years since Robert Vinson approached me with an idea He developed (11 more years prior) concerning a concept of invisibility. Back then, I immediately prototyped this concept behind "InCisi-Vision", and starting way back when, proceeded to discuss it with 4 very trustworthy magic confidants, and pretty much the collective response was "Why hasn't anyone thought of this before" (please read my previous post for a much more detailed chronological history).  Back then it just didn't dawn on me to search Toy Patents for an "Illusion Related Development" that I was working on, and as of now (to the best of my current knowledge), Tora's version was years away from being produced (as even Dennis Loomis claimed in an earlier post less that his attempt to actually access Tora's Web site fell short of obtaining the related information he was desiring, as did my similar access attempts as well). A little over a week ago was the moment information first broke my way concerning Tora's arm and body "Triple Split Illusion", or whatever Tora calls it (and a Special Thanks to "Magic Patagonia" for bringing their effects to my attention first, with a homemade video to boot).  My offer still stands that if any of Tora's dated R & D documentation pre-dates my verifiable "1/2 a dozen year involvement" with the "ICV" developmental processes, then I firmly believe they indeed are entitled to Their portion of the "Performance Rights Fee's" obtained from all current and future "InCisi-Vision" sales. What they do not (or anyone else for that matter) have proprietary rights to is any of the following and legally binding "Intellectual Property Rights" featured on My Design, starting with...  1.) The name "InCisi-Vision". 2.) The feature of showing volunteers Middle Section, along with Visible Head and Feet.  3.) The Removable and latch-on (from below) "Padded mid-section Lift Tray Feature".  4.) The "Cloth Pass Thru" Effect.  5.) The Climatic "Lifting and Locking of End Boxes".  6.) Any Design Aesthetics and Stylized Appliques inherent with the "Form Follows Function" features of the "InCisi-Vision", including the Scimitar style swords.  7.) And Finally, Not to forget mentioning that "ICV" was the first to boast of the "Surround ability Feature" associated with its Design!   I can't think of any "Honest Magician(s)" who would disagree with any of my above stipulations, as I am also a firm believer that there are multiple affordability levels within Our Vast "Magic and Illusion Market Place"... Something for Everyone...  From the basic stripped down models,  to "All the Bangs and Whistles", delivered with the utmost Quality and Dependability Possible (see Stevens Magic Emporium website, or contact Rudy Sanchez direct for more detailed information).  In order for the Magic Fraternity to constantly deliver the Latest and Greatest effects that all paying audiences demand, a certain "Professional Decorum" concerning Proprietary Ethics MUST be adhered to (in order to insure that "Maximum Creativity" flows into and throughout our Beloved Magical Arts), and if anyone can think of a more Balanced and Fairer way to settle any and all of this threads "Perceived Disputes", then I'm all eyes and ears, and welcome any and all suggestions to that end, as All Creative Contributors within Magic should enjoy Intellectual Protections along with Just Monetary Rewards...  Thanks Again for Your Continued Time and Input!  Dave Pavlov  Â
www.cesaral.com
Sales Manager for Cesaral Magic |
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Can ideas be created or discovered simultaneously? Of course. We've all seen examples in the past... and most have all been debated (ad nauseam) on here.
Maybe the advertising language wasn't exact. I get it... we all get it. Was there a blatant and willful theft of ideas? I really don't think so in this case. If Dave has independent verifiable documents showing the idea 6 years ago and no one else has anything earlier... then that seems fair. No not everyone knows how to (or has the time to) search every book, periodical, patent, letter, or notebook prior to announcing what they "created". Most of us do what we call "due diligence" with questioning others that are more expert than ourselves to find out if there is any commonly available duplication before proceeding. I will also tell you that I have come up with some things I thought were very clever and sat on them, only to have them invented later by someone else. I know they hadn't seen my personal notes so I know they didn't steal the idea from me. It would appear from the evidence presented on here that Dave did due diligence in looking around for similar methods before embarking on this project. It just took too long and in the mean time, someone else came up with something similar and got it to market faster. That is why ideas are protected so fiercely in larger corporations. Mattel doesn't want their hot new idea to get out and be knocked off by someone faster. It's not about who got it to market the fastest, but who actually came up with the idea. The question now is... did Tora get wind of the idea from Dave and company? I honestly don't pretend to know. I do know that the longer something takes and the more people that see it... the more risk of the idea getting out. I do know that your animosity seems to be in defense to your own link with someone constantly accused of playing fast and loose with ethics in illusion duplication. I honestly believe you think that if you can catch someone else in a similar situation, it deflects and/or diffuses the attention on you. This might be the case but again, it all boils down to intent. Did Dave knowingly and intentionally rip off anyone? It really doesn't appear to be the case to most observers. No, the advertising hype wasn't literally accurate... we all get that and have learned from it. We aren't discussing the subjective details of the effect... Is it better? Do you like the art work? We're just discussing the origin and that seems to be pretty clear now. Hopefully we can get back to making good magic now
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-26 13:47, Ray Pierce wrote: I have to disagree unless he thinks the idea was stolen, I do think it belongs to the person who got it to market first. |
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
So if I over hear you discussing a new original idea in the booth behind me at Denny's, and I rush home and build it and take it to a magic shop and sell it to them... is it then my idea?
That's a very unique logic. lol... Remind me not to discuss any of my ideas with you!
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
magic patagonia Special user 570 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-26 13:47, Ray Pierce wrote: The artwork is great!...but what impressed me the most was the "Cloth Pass Thru" effect...very good idea! |
|||||||||
illusionman2 Special user 991 Posts |
Quote:
On 2011-07-26 14:31, Ray Pierce wrote: I said unless it is stolen. There is indepent thought.I think you are safe discussing your Ideas with me. PS I don't go to Denny's |
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
Lol... I don't either.... but then again... only they have that Bacon and ice cream sundae!
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
TaylorReed Special user Branson, MO 743 Posts |
I go to Denny's every day!!!!!! But not to eat.
TR
www.taylorreed.com
www.usedmagicillusions.com taylor@taylorreed.com (979)482-0714 See: The Magic and Comedy of Taylor Reed, Live in Branson, Mo |
|||||||||
CA-Lynx New user 52 Posts |
Hmm. Magic Waffles... It has potential.
|
|||||||||
Dennis Loomis 1943 - 2013 2113 Posts |
Simultaneous discovery certainly does happen. For example, I came up with the idea of marking the force cards in the Koran 101 Force Deck. This was in 1961. Many years later, I used the idea in my commercial release: Mentalism 101. When I advertised the effect, I heard from Simon Aronson that he had used the idea in an effect he published. He was a little "miffed" even though we were friends. Since we are friends, I told him about when I came up with the concept. It certainly was long before he published it, although I have no idea if it was before he thought of it. He accepted my explanation, and we are still friends. It also turns out that my marking system was very different from his. In his version, you can only tell that the card is a force card, or one of the null cards. My system tells you the suit and value of the force card.
However, sometimes claims of simultaneous discovery have to be taken with a big grain of salt, as in the Great Zig Zag Ripoff of many years ago. Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com |
|||||||||
CA-Lynx New user 52 Posts |
The new video will be posted any time. keep checking for it.
|
|||||||||
CA-Lynx New user 52 Posts |
||||||||||
Noel M Loyal user San Rafael. CA 208 Posts |
I don't do illusions and only have rudimentary of how they work. I usually don't ask illusion questions but I have one now. I watched the new video several times and I have a problem with the swords. They don't seem to cut anything. When he initial put them in I thought that they didn't go down far enough to sever the body, but I thought that it was just me and lay people wouldn't notice it. Once the center was raised the swords were visible and had clearly stopped before they got to the body. Does this bother anyone else? I see that they are used to support the cloth, but is that it? It seems there was dramatic import as they were inserted which to me was to big a deal if all they are doing is supporting the cloth. Are they needed for some technical issue of which I'm unaware?
Thanks |
|||||||||
Fabricem Elite user 479 Posts |
You right Noel.....
|
|||||||||
Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
I understand your confusion but I think you missed the core idea of the effect, which I agree isn't really sold that clearly in the video. There is a solid board placed under the girl's midsection which is locked to the box trapping her inside so if you lifted that box, it would lift her as well. The swords are wedged just above her body and as the box is forcefully lifted (with her trapped inside) the upward movement pulls her midsection up through the swords slicing her into thirds. It is a little abstract but I think you really have to let the audience understand that important plot point to get the rest. It is a little odd, but the precedent is Jim Steinmeyer's Modern Art where a blade is placed beside a box and as the top box slides over, the assumption is that the person must have been sliced as they passed the blade.
This is a beautifully executed clever idea. It's not just a self working box that anyone can do and come off good. I think it needs a strong performer and good staging and dirction but in the right hands could be a show stopper.
Ray Pierce
|
|||||||||
Noel M Loyal user San Rafael. CA 208 Posts |
Yes, thank you; that makes complete sense to me. I hadn't consider that the swords kept her in place. I think this is a terrific illusion. I'm no longer troubled but I see that it takes strong performance skills to convey it. I was thinking of illusions like Modern Art and various sawings where the blades seeming le sever the assitant
|
|||||||||
CA-Lynx New user 52 Posts |
I agree with Ray,
I personally did not want to give up MY presentation on this video so we simplified the performance. Ray is correct about the blades, Jim's Modern Art was the insperation for the method of using the blades, we did not want to use the same old technique so many other illusions are using. Thanks Ray and Noel, Robert Vinson |
|||||||||
Noel M Loyal user San Rafael. CA 208 Posts |
Blade through body versus body through blade. Very good thinking.
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Grand illusion » » InCisi-Vision (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.06 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |