The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » The high price of DVD's (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
tedski
View Profile
Special user
New Jersey
786 Posts

Profile of tedski
It's not snobbery; books are more subject to interpretation which can lead to variation (sometimes good, sometimes not). You might be able to argue the point that a person can take a concept from a dvd and create a variation, but it is my observation that there are too many lazy people that clone performances from dvds.
Cain
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
1513 Posts

Profile of Cain
Quote:
On 2011-08-02 19:52, tedski wrote:
It's not snobbery; books are more subject to interpretation which can lead to variation (sometimes good, sometimes not).


In other words, the transmission of information suffers greater distortion. While it's true that some of the
most inventive discoveries in history are the result of accident, I don't think that's a compelling argument
in the case of instructional materials. What if a book reviewer said, "The tricks are complicated and not very
good. Thankfully, the writing is terrible, so people attempting to figure these things out may accidentally
hit upon something better."

Quote:
You might be able to argue the point that a person can take a concept from a dvd and create a variation, but it is my observation that there are too many lazy people that clone performances from dvds.


So? This is perfectly acceptable for beginners performers still searching for their voice.* That's how almost
everyone begins, in magic or stand-up; after awhile, they develop their aesthetic and do their own thing. Fewer
people would even get to that stage if not for the momentum gained from effective, inspiring instruction early on.

Besides, magicians are always working on their own takes. It's that old light bulb joke about how the other hundred
magicians "explain their variation." Magicians will always make changes to a presentation or method. If more
people, learn more things then more connections will be made. Compare performers at all levels in the early 70s to
the early 90s versus the early 90s to the present day.

An advantage of books is that the material is (often) easier to relearn. I rarely go back and watch explanation
videos because they're a pain. Also, performances are usually more cringe-worthy. Carefully edited books also
emphasize key points that get blabbed over in an improvised explanation. But attentive students will study the
performance.

*Which is not to suggest all professionals have a voice: they recycle the same stock lines, and still earn a comfortable
living, which means they're not even going to bother searching for a unique perspective.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
R.E. Byrnes
View Profile
Inner circle
1206 Posts

Profile of R.E. Byrnes
DVD's are obviously useful in showing the ultimate performance, which can be pretty opaque in some books. books might "have a mystique" to illiterates. but they are just an alternate way to present information. apart from allowing people to ply a "traditional" or more modern persona, the either-or debates about books versus DVDs make magicians look pretty fatuous, and unable to accommodate the simple idea that both are obviously useful mediums
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
6635 Posts

Profile of magicfish
Im wondering why many of you are using an apostrophe to pluralize DVD.
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
6635 Posts

Profile of magicfish
Im wondering why many of you are using an apostrophe to pluralize DVD.
magicfish
View Profile
Inner circle
6635 Posts

Profile of magicfish
Im also wondering why I double posted.
bobon
View Profile
Regular user
Hyderabad .India
165 Posts

Profile of bobon
Quote:
On 2011-06-28 10:55, Vlad_77 wrote:
We know that many brick and mortar shops have gone under with the explosion of the Internet. However, even the Internet folk aren't becoming wealthy from selling either even though their operating costs are MUCH lower than a brick and mortar. I know that the subtext of your argument is that if magic media were sold at a higher price then our secrets would be out of the hands of the merely curious. In practicality that doesn't work. As was mentioned earlier, books - and I mean HUGE books are now being scanned and put on torrent sites and other P2P services. DVDs are everywhere on usenet which is MUCH harder to police. If you can imagine the topic you WILL find it on usenet and as I am sure you know, most people are not as aware of usenet or how to use it.

Recenly I bought a book from HankLee shop which cost $70 and I paid $15 just for postage to get it in India.Think If I want to build a library like some of you ..then.. !!?? I can pay that much xtra amount for a single book but for bulk !!.In torrent sites you don't have to pay anything to download a book but I think people who really bought the book,scanned with care and then make it available to everyone who are they??And if say rare books like marlo magazine its available scanned copy as pdf which has signature of Ed Marlo.Unbeliveable!!Its not easy to collect a book like that and just for fun its scanned and posted.

All I mean to say that the people who are originally buying those materials(books and DVD's) are the creator of those torrent files/piracy.(obviously not all of them).

Prabir
Vlad_77
View Profile
Inner circle
The Netherlands
5829 Posts

Profile of Vlad_77
Prabir,

Obviously one COULD build a MASSIVE library through torrents and usenet IF one wishes to be complicit in an illegal activity.

What is really puzzling to me is the fact that these people aren't making any money from it either - thank heaven. But what I mean is that these people are buying books, scanning them, and posting them, and anybody can download them for the cost of a usenet service and/or torrent subscription. Even if I adopt a criminal state of mind, I cannot see the purpose in it.

These people cannot justify doing for the faux noble reason of "bringing the knowledge to the people." Pirates never have such noble justifications. The simple fact is the obverse: they simply do not value knowledge. If it can be pirated then it is fair game. Yet Lybrary.com, The Miracle Factory, and Martin Breese offer digital volumes of great books at a very low cost and it feels good to support these endeavors because people like Chris, Todd, and Martin DO care. Just this year alone DIGITALLY I have bought: The New Conjurer's Magazine, Club 71, The Goldston Journals, and a bunch of stuff from Cameron Francis, Peter Duffie, and many others. Hard copy books thus far this year have included The New Jinx, Look Ma No Hands, Al Schneider Magic, Avant Cards, Mind Warp, Pasteboard Presentations, The Essential Dai Vernon, and a lot more.

I am not rich - FAR from it. I live in a rust belt city and I am a graduate student. Because my funds are limited and because I LOVE this art, I value these digital and analog resources. But I hasten to add that wealthy members who can buy ANYTHING and do ALSO care so it is not about financial resources as much as it is about valuing the the knowledge we gain through legal purchase as well as the moral satisfaction of knowing we did not steal from the author.

Piracy has made its way even into music production! There is a piece of software that I can buy that allows me to clone the complete operating system, patches, and architecture of ANY synthesizer on the market. The software is legal and its intended purpose was for musicians to have a back up of their synths' operating systems and patches in case of a major studio disaster. But here is the REAL scam: Some people buy this software then go to a dealer like Sam Ash or Guitar Center. Each of these big retailers offer a 30 day try it before you buy it program. It's a great program because synthesizers and music workstations and production stations are very high ticket items and as a musician, I want to know that whatever I am adding to my rig suits my needs as a musician. But, these programs are in danger now because some people are bringing the instruments home, using the software to clone, and then returning the instrument. These "musicians" are pirating complete musical instruments!!

It is sad that pirates exist but no matter what we do, we cannot stop them. The best we can do is to resist these torrents. Oh BELIEVE me Prabir, I have looked around these sites and I could build a library on a scale beyond my wildest dreams and it can be very tempting. But will I be able to look at myself in the mirror knowing I have stolen the hard work of these authors? NO. And really, I would not value these works because they were so easily gotten.

I especially admire your post because you spent the extra money to buy a book that is not available in India. And you will value that book! The price one would pay for torrenting books and DVDs is a steep one really because morality transcends mere currency.

@Cain,

I agree with R.E. Byrnes that such a comparison between books and DVDs is indeed fatuous. The BEST argument any individual can make is that for that particular individual a certain medium is more conducive to learning than other extant media. The argument that DVD is the best medium for learning magic because they are visual and magic is visual just doesn't hold water. Music is aural yet music theory is taught largely through books and through practice. One could interpret from your assertion that a musician would be better off listening to audio CDs to learn music theory. Good luck with that. I can just imagine a CD where the narrator is attempting to explain even the simplest things such as the difference between 7ths and major 7ths.

While narrative prose I would agree is more subject to distortion due to navigating extremely complex narrative themes such as those found in Chaucer, Faulkner, etc., expository prose - magic books in this case - do not IMHO suffer the same distortion. Expository prose instructs. When for instance I was learning HaLo Aces from Rim Shots, there was no way I could misinterpret Harry Lorayne's instructions.

I DO believe however that books offer much more in terms of the "why" than just the "how." It would be hard for me to imagine Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic or Designing Miracles for instance as videos. It could be done of course at great expense. Pro rated such an endeavor would be the equivalent of the budget for The Lord of the Rings trilogy of films.

Books and DVDs work very well as adjuncts to one another and even though my preference is books, I do recognize the intrinsic value of the educational possibilities of DVDs.

Ahimsa,
Vlad
R.E. Byrnes
View Profile
Inner circle
1206 Posts

Profile of R.E. Byrnes
"It would be hard for me to imagine Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic or Designing Miracles for instance as videos."

great point
Indigo
View Profile
New user
96 Posts

Profile of Indigo
I own books and DVDs and don't really understand this compulsion to assert one is better than the other. I wouldn't give up either one.
Robert P.
View Profile
Special user
Kansas
548 Posts

Profile of Robert P.
I used to go back and forth on which I preferred more, books or DVDs, they both have their pros and cons. But now, I have just learned to equally enjoy both. Just as Spackle mentioned, I think it would be great if we could see a visual performance of the effects of the book. In the past year, I saw some performances on youtube by a magician (I can provide the links later if needed, I don't have access to youtube right now) on the books "5x5 Japan", "New Magic of Japan" and "By Forces Unseen". It was wonderful, and it made me research and buy the books.

And I got to thinking, I've got so many books as is, what material am I missing out on just because I'm too lazy to sit down and start working through the book? Well, the biggest factor for most of us is time. With a visual medium, we have the advantage of watching and enjoying the effect for ourselves, we can then determine if we want to spend the effort and time to learn it.

I like the way John Bannon does it, where he offers the choice of a DVD or book. Even with his packet fractal magic, you can see what the performance is like before purchasing. As others have mentioned, producing a DVD is expensive, but providing a performance of the effects of the book on youtube would help in getting the book more exposure. Not that I am at all complaining, just what would be a perfect world for me, haha.

Quote:
On 2011-06-27 15:29, Swann101 wrote:
Dvd's and magic books are selling too cheap in my opinion, the prices should be much higher to protect our secrets more!


I see a lot of statements like this in here and I guess I’m on the other side of the spectrum. Unfortunately, many of these DVDs and books are already out there on the internet being pirated. Even with that being the case, most people aren’t going out there and actually using or even reading the information. And the ones that do know the secret aren’t doing anything with it most of the time to where it would hamper someone else from performing it. The Ambitious Card Routine is still going strong today, I wouldn’t lose sleep about my favorite trick on pg. xx of book “xxxxx xxxxxx” being performed by others.

For me, magic books and DVDs are 'too expensive'. But that’s the case because of supply and demand. Just as was mentioned in this thread, a best seller in magic might only be around 1000 copies. So understandably it is priced the way it is. And I am just being selfish when I say they are too expensive for me since I can’t get enough. Smile

Magic is something I do only as a hobby. With so many books and DVDs already on my shelf, I will probably only attempt to learn less than 5% of what I have. And I’m OK with that, the other reason I can’t stop purchasing the stuff is because it entertains me. I love it. Sometimes I just have to know how it is done, and when I find out it makes me appreciate the thinking and creativity of the artist that much more.

Anyways, sorry about all of the rambling. But before I drop out, Vlad, can you tell me more about these New Tops DVD compilations that you speak of?...
Cain
View Profile
Inner circle
Los Angeles, CA
1513 Posts

Profile of Cain
Quote:
On 2011-08-03 10:12, Vlad_77 wrote:
@Cain,

I agree with R.E. Byrnes that such a comparison between books and DVDs is indeed fatuous. The BEST argument any individual can make is that for that particular individual a certain medium is more conducive to learning than other extant media. The argument that DVD is the best medium for learning magic because they are visual and magic is visual just doesn't hold water. Music is aural yet music theory is taught largely through books and through practice.


Vlad,

My original post included this exact caveat but I excised it on the consideration that this was bleedingly obvious. I mean, we are talking about trick DVDs,
not theory DVDs. The distinction only underscores the point.

Quote:
While narrative prose I would agree is more subject to distortion due to navigating extremely complex narrative themes such as those found in Chaucer, Faulkner, etc., expository prose - magic books in this case - do not IMHO suffer the same distortion. Expository prose instructs. When for instance I was learning HaLo Aces from Rim Shots, there was no way I could misinterpret Harry Lorayne's instructions.


False. One of the most common arguments for books -- and we've seen it here -- is that people misinterpret them. Furthermore, I would
dispute your distinction between narrative and exposition; the former's easier for us to understand because it deals with story.
Indeed, this is precisely how humans have passed along hard fought moral wisdom over the years (see for instance, the Bible).

However, it's easy to make nonsense of your claim. When it comes to constructing furniture, or teaching someone how to change their oil,
which medium is easier to learn from, a DVD/youtube video or an instruction manual? I suppose a key difference in the realm of conjuring
is that that the people who create instruction manuals are generally much better writers than magicians.

I agree people learn best by doing -- which is why videos have enabled more people to progress further than ever before. Monkey see,
monkey do. Now, does this suggest we can do away with all our books? I don't see how I've opened myself up to that straw man. The fact
is there's a lot of stuff hiding in print (a fact so obvious that it's a cliche).

As for this business about how books have mystique only to illiterate -- that's just ridiculous. I'd wager the sentiment is far more
among bibliophiles.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."

Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!"
Hugokhf
View Profile
Special user
581 Posts

Profile of Hugokhf
Quote:
On 2011-08-03 11:14, RobertP wrote:

the other reason I can’t stop purchasing the stuff is because it entertains me. I love it. Sometimes I just have to know how it is done, and when I find out it makes me appreciate the thinking and creativity of the artist that much more.



cannot agree more.
You just NEED to know how it is done or else you cannot sleep!!
and also evertime recieving a book or anything from the mail makes me so excited!
R.E. Byrnes
View Profile
Inner circle
1206 Posts

Profile of R.E. Byrnes
"Im wondering why many of you are using an apostrophe to pluralize DVD."

Because it's a common mistake; because lots of auto-correct programs presume the possessive is intended; and because there's no confusion or loss of meaning, and it's generally not worth takingnthe time to carefully proofread and revise message bored post's
clamon86
View Profile
Special user
508 Posts

Profile of clamon86
If you spend your time learning by DVD, you will spend your time copying other magicians.

If you learn by book, and go through and read you what you already have, you will become an excellent magician.

Just the process alone of reading and understanding is infinitely more powerful and important than watching a dvd no matter what its from.

From the point of a view of a performer, and a magical artist working hard on his material there are about 10 dvds that are excellent to learn from. That's it!

1. Bill Malone- on the loose
2. Tommy Wonder- visions of wonder
3. Don Alan- magic ranch
4. Tom Mullica- tom foolery
5. Joel Bauer- hustle hustle
6. Michael Ammar- anything
7. Jeff McBride- anything


If these are the only titles you have, you're fine. Why? Because you learn more than just tricks. You learn characterization, routining, and some of the best magic ever.

Books, over 100.
Also another point. Even if you read a bad magic book, reading alone is great practice.

Everything else steps into mediocrity.
Harry Lorayne
View Profile
V.I.P.
New York City
8471 Posts

Profile of Harry Lorayne
Gee, sorry I couldn't be of help, clamon86.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
wsduncan
View Profile
Inner circle
Seattle, WA
3618 Posts

Profile of wsduncan
Quote:
On 2011-06-27 15:02, Harry Lorayne wrote:
I probably did something wrong!! Just checked Vol. 1 of my 4-vol. "Best Ever" DVD set, and - there are over 30 items, plus - "Over 40 sleights fully exlained!" it says on the cover. Cost to the retail buyer is much less that $1 an item. The cover of Vol. 4 says "30 Routines! 14 Sleights Fully Explained" (and there's an hour of me doing memory stuff in front of a lay audience. I did SOMETHING wrong! HL.

PS: Is Splice serious or is he joking?


Yeah Harry, but consider how much more stuff is in one volume of your own magazine (for example), and DVDs are still WAY more expensive.

DVDs to provide things books don't like pacing, inflection, and timing. Plus you get to SEE the trick before you learn how it's done, which is often very helpful. Mike Skinner used to fool the crap out of people wiht stuff from Royal Road because the tricks READ like a walk through the supermarket, but when you SAW them you were fooled and entertained because all you saw was the effect, not the method.
Indigo
View Profile
New user
96 Posts

Profile of Indigo
Quote:
On 2011-08-03 15:47, R.E. Byrnes wrote:
"Im wondering why many of you are using an apostrophe to pluralize DVD."

Because it's a common mistake; because lots of auto-correct programs presume the possessive is intended; and because there's no confusion or loss of meaning, and it's generally not worth takingnthe time to carefully proofread and revise message bored post's


Not worth it if you have no regard for the person who has to read it.
ftlum
View Profile
Special user
Roseville, CA
727 Posts

Profile of ftlum
Quote:
On 2011-08-02 19:44, bobn3 wrote:
I am enough of an "old fart" that I remember back when magic VHS tapes first came out. They sold in the $80 to $90 range (and some even higher). I find it difficult crying the blues about $30 to $40 on DVDs.

Bob Phillips


$80 VHS tapes. That's what I remember and I'm not even that "farty"... yet Smile.
R.E. Byrnes
View Profile
Inner circle
1206 Posts

Profile of R.E. Byrnes
"Not worth it if you have no regard for the person who has to read it."

it's all about having regard for you. How many ways do you have to feel smart, other than pointing out the misuse of apostrophes?

(Your sentence is missing a verb, by the way. But like the misused possessive, your intent is easy to figure out, and it really has nothing to do with "regard.")
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » The high price of DVD's (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
X
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.27 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL