Hello all, please excuse me if this is not hte best place for this post. The Café is so expansive it is difficult to decide!

Here is my premise/concern: Are we turning away or discouraging newcomers with our "magic snobbery"? I have been involved in magic in various forms for close to 30 years. I have performed, studied, built and immeresed myself at differeing levels and one thing I have noticed is that we tend to diminish the "old" and belittle the "simple" in hopes of looking like the better magi. I relaize that this is nothing new to magic, just look at the corespondence of old and you'll see it there, but is it beneficial? Several years ago when I was much more active in the craft I was reluctant to learn some of the classics of magic, cups & balls rings etc, because they were so outdated and everyone had already seend them. Recently I became actively involved in performing magic due to the utter lack of it on my area and as I began to practice I decided I WOULD do those classics and set out to do them well. My reason; it was those magical moments when the lemon appeared under the cup or when the rings melted apart that made me say " I want to learn to do that" as a child and that is whaat I hope to pass along. I realize that everything changes and grows through time, but if the only magic that young children can see is the ultra-expensive productions on America's Got Talent then I fear they will be discouraged from ever starting.

I was in a migic shop in an undisclosed east coast location and the owner was talking about all the tricks that they "hate" to see one more time and most of them were classics! I understand that we magicians know how its done and may even be able to do it better but does that mean we shouldn't encourage others to learn it? There is truly something special about beleiving in magic, knowing there is a trick to it and yet still in the back of your mind thinking that there is no way it could be done. This is the light you see on the face of children and should be the goal we shoot for. I'm not saying that every show has to be a cookie cutter production, but the reasson some tricks are still around is because they work! They entertain; and ultimately they inspire others to pursue the art.

At least that's my two cents worth.

IMHO most of the time anyone who asks straight questions like "would someone kindly direct me to where (a book/dvd/instructor preferred?) I can learn more about X" will get a helpful reply.

Those who are visiting with an agenda to have their own presuppositions, beliefs, sentiments toward a topic or person commiserated, validated or general pot-stirring are here under false pretenses.

To any who wish to bring the delight of magic to audiences and have enough self respect to know that they are visiting among peers and in a craft with over five hundred years of literature onhand (in English) and that this craft is a tiny subset of theater which has a working history of thousands of years - and uses tools of perception/deception which have been refined over thousands of years - IMHO the doors are open. Ask what you will.

* And now, for the sake of balance, something completely different; a dolt with specious commentary:
The cups and balls suck. I mean did the inventor have three hands and three eyes? What is with people who keep copying a trick that obviously was not invented by or intended for use by human beings. Sheesh! If they had half a brain or wit they'd use four cups and four balls. If three are good then four is better, right?

Jonathan seems to have a great perspective on this.

I would only add that most of us on here have worked very hard for many years in this field and really love magic. To that end, we frequently get frustrated by people who don't have the same respect for it we do and want "something for nothing".

Anyone that shows sincere interest and respect for the process of learning and growing is usually rewarded with so much rich information that it makes me very jealous that this medium wasn't around in my vernal years.

On the other hand, "peers" of all levels do talk and share ideas in this public forum and just because someone knows three card effects, that doesn't entitle them to the same position and stature as someone who has dedicated their life to mastery of this craft. There are some great masters online here and I've seen them be very generous with their time and thoughts with people they think are deserving of that time. I've also seen people not be as forthcoming if they believe someone hasn't "paid their dues" or done due diligence in their homework. Is it "snobbery" to want someone to respect the art/craft before we give them freely of our time and knowledge? I would hope not. Are we selective with who we share our knowledge? Probably.

I've also seen a pattern of mild hazing in most fields and communities to make sure the person seeking entry is really serious about their goals and desires and to weed out the weak and mearly curious observers. Is this wrong? I could argue on both sides but I understand it being there.

The important part is that this is a free and open forum. Thanks to Steve and our advertisers, no one is paying for the information that is exchanged on here. Respect others, earn your way and be appreciative for the help and I've found most to be very open and receptive to new people and sharing their vast knowledge with them to help them grow in this field we love so dearly.

When I read posts in which the "classics" are thought of as 'not with it', etc. I just laugh and laugh. Really. I know one guy who has made over $30,000+ extra a year doing magic as a part timer who's entire act is based on the 'classics' like Cups and Balls and Linking Rings. Doesn't walk out of his house for less than $1000.00 a show and does pretty much as many as he likes. I grant you that he's on my list of the finest magic performers I've ever seen so it works out great for the craft.

The fact is 'classics' are classics because they are wonderful whenever they are done well. For years I closed with the Ganson Linking Ring Routine right out of Routined Manipulation only leaving out the tossing large metal rings INTO the audience part... ;-) And, it got terrific response! I've lost count of the guys who have come up and said, "You know I have that trick, but I guess yours works differently than mine does." Said with a puzzled look on their face, etc. I always say, "Yes, mine does." Without a lick of guilt and a modicum of secret delight.

Bring on the classics!

Don Lawton was the host at the Magic Castle for most of the years that I hung out there. He had one of the best lectures I have seen. Just packed with bits and material almost all based on what would now be termed classics. My favorite? His take on the Chinese Sticks. He used a standard Adams set and kept it in the inside jacket pocket. I started using them in shows and never regretted it!

Fun true story of the Chinese Sticks effectiveness: I get hired to work a show. Woman on the phone says, "Look it's about 50 PhD Physicists and their wives and about half wives have doctorates in various sciences. Do you think you can handle that?" I laugh inside. You betcha! I answer.

Show was a piece of cake. Give me really smart people ANY day! Sooooo....working the show. Do all my best stuff using my best sleights, yada, yada. Shows going great, but...... I pull out my big gun: A $10 set of Adams Chinese Sticks. Do my routine which is about as old as the pyramids. I do it REALLY well, but it's a standard routine. Result? They go nuts. All these brainy folks just go crazy for this 'Classic'.

All I can say is they are darn lucky, for their sanity's sake that I didn't pull out a mouth coil or a hat tear!!!!!!!!

Best,

I in no way intend to imply that ANYONE within this group is holding back or berating those who may be new to the art. Apparently I did not get my point across very well. I simply intended to discuss the bent we have towards the newest thing. Not just in magic but in humanity at large. I would guess that most who are involved in magic were inspired by someone who performed at least a few of the routines htat are often not included in thier own shows. It is from a humble perspective that I discuss this situation. My intent is to provoke dialogue over the oppurtunities we have to share our craft with the next generation; whether that be an eight year old or an eighty year old doesn't matter. Maybe "magic Snobbery" is not the phrase to use, I don't expect that everyone should give away thier knowledge or short themselves of their hard earned revenue/reputations. I was just reminiscing and wondering if the newcomers of today are inspired to get into the art as much as I was. Maybe that is why the old is new again, because no one has ssen it in so long.

In the right hands, the cups and balls, linking rings and, I dare say, most of the other classics, are things of beauty and mystery that continue to fascinate no matter how sophisticated the audience, how often they have seen the effect, or how much they understand the workings. Like classic films they are more fully appreciated on each viewing. IMO they are also the best training for any budding magician.

But maybe I'm just a different kind of snob.

Mike

I have made a living my whole life doing nothing but magic classics: Sucker Silk to Egg, Linking Rings, Cut and Restored Rope, Newpaper Tear, Bill in Lemon, Cups and Balls, Ambitious Card--you name it.

I don't know what makes you think that no one is doing the classics. I think you will find that the majority of professionals are doing classic magic routines.

Mike I couldn't agree more. Being in an area with a lack of magical performances has possibly skewed my attitude. Magic has provided me with so many benefits that I long for the same oppurtunities for others. Not a free for all, but the chance to have thier own imagination excited and have them wonder "could I do that?" Not for the sake of knowing the "trick" but learning to offer that moment of amazement for others. Is it different with other art forms? Do pianists and dancers steer clear of performing Bethoven or dancing the Nutcracker just because everyone has seen/heard that one?

Kenne:

You need not worry about the next gen. Among other things in magic I've been a dealer for 40 years this year and I can tell you the young folks are busting down the doors and comin' right in.

Compared to what I had by way of entrance to the craft of magic it's so wide open now that no one need languish outside the gates. The number of books, dvds, web sites, local magic groups is stunning in both it's variety and accessibility.

I always considered myself to be an ethical dealer and many, many times would attempt to dissuade someone from buying something that I deemed inappropriate, etc. But, no dealer I have ever known was, for instance, keeping anyone out who really wanted in. Magic folks on the whole and with very few exceptions are some of the nicest most generous people in the world and generally only want to know that the person seeking knowledge and/or help are in fact REALLY interested and not just attempting to 'find out' how something is done.

I just don't think you have to worry. My observation is that magic is in pandemic stage right now and only getting more popular all the time.

By the by, some folks find that the seeming wholesale closing of so many local magic shops is somehow a sign that magic is retreating. Not so. I closed mine for several reasons one of which was health problems, but more that that I knew for a certainty that a huge chunk of my clients wanted lower price over service and took their custom online. No problem. Really. Life changes. I haven't bought a buggy whip in like ten or more years. I buy almost no books on ground using Amazon for my book buying which by anyone's calculation tends to be excessive! So with magic, so with books, so it goes.

I would tend to think that more folks are 'getting into' magic than ever before it's just not as noticeable perhaps.

Anyway.... I don't think it a problem, but it's something to think about: What if any are the hindrances placed before folks that might want to explore magic? Not sure...

Best,

Brad, I'm sure you are correct. Possibly I had to surly of a moment. I just bought a brand new buggy whip. Are they going out of style?

My honest feeling is that some effects become classics not because they can be great in the right hands but because they can be pretty darn good in ANY hands! Even if you butcher them they still hold up... anyone can do them decently and fool people so they become "classics".

I do classic magic effects as do many others and I'm proud of the effects and my contributions to them. I would even say that you need to have a good knowledge and working routines on many classics to be considered a journeyman magician. If someone says they don't have a routine with cups and balls, C&R Rope, ambitious card, etc... lol... I don't trust them!

This is how we learn our craft. Is it necessary? Not absolutely but it's like saying you're a journeyman carpenter but you've never learned joinery. For me, understanding (and some would argue mastering) the classics is one of the basic tenents of what we do.

Ray:

I totally agree! Part of my point above is that it IS easy to leap ahead because of how much material is available. Odd jumps in difficulty before the necessary foundations been laid. Sigh...

Another thing to add to your thoughts on the Classics......I have, over the years, found them to be FUN to do! I LIKE Linking Rings and always have. I LIKE Cups and Balls, although my favorite trick is Chop Cup...which I consider cups and balls without all the extra cups getting in the way. It's hard to beat Triumph or Ambitious Card for sheer audience impact and well, just plain fun. They are all FUN to do.

Best,

Lol.. well, I must agree! I still do all of those and it IS fun! That's the reason I'm working the parlour at the Castle this time instead of the palace. The parlour is just about me doing the classics and I have a blast!

The "classics" became "classics" for a reason! 'Nuff said.

Lots of things are classic yet dreadful. The Human Condition, War, Pestilence, Famine, Death, Adultery, Ambitious Card, Clever Dolt performers who confuse attention as given to a pet doing tricks with entertainment as offered by professionals.

IMHO until folks know the "why" they are better off staying away from the "what" and never mind how clever the "how".

Let's hear more about the context and the process that permits an item to be useful in entertaining and less about how "so and so has a new method that killed em at the last big convention".

Please give an example of a 'why' divorced from knowing the 'how' of the 'what'. Seriously, not trying to be provocative. My thinking is generally so concrete that the idea of having a 'why' abstracted from, well 'something' that needs an explanation is just alien to me.

I'll give an example of where I am stuck: I have read Fitzkee's Showmanship for Magician's three times, the last being many years ago. Contextually, the discussion is about showmanship as it's useful in the presentation of magic. Specific 'whats' were always used. "Pennies from Heaven" linked to the the Miser's Dream, etc. The 'whats' and 'hows' always preceded the 'why'. Here's a concrete example. Here's how it worked for me, us, them. Here is 'why' it worked.

In what sense do you have the 'why' coming before anything that might explain what it is in regards to? Thanks,

Unless and until there sufficient reason for them to care...

magic may as well be (citing Shakespeare) a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Meaning is social. Until the audience has a means and predisposition to imbue meaning to the actions performed - perhaps better not to feign being an idiot IMHO.

Well........

I've been performing a modified, shortened version of Vernon's "Symphony of the Rings" for about 4-5 years now, it's always one of the last 3 or 4 pieces performed in the show and .....

It always gets very positive audience reaction, pops (applause), oohs and a laugh in all the right places
At corporate close up gigs if the rings are in view I've been asked often to perform them

I share a 30 second story about Vernon before performing "Symphony of the Rings"

For mixed age audiences I explain how learning from books and not You Tube after performing "Symphony of the Rings" without putting down You Tube but quickly explaining learning tools


so ..... I guess classics are classics for a reason

RE: Fitzkee and the question of the Why preceeding all else:
For me, the first "WHY" that I as of myself is WHY am I doing the effect?

Why this...and not something else?
Although there may be practical considerations such as "This only takes 3 minutes and needs no audience assistants", or "This effect will build towards the show's climax", the first why includes a bit of self examination: What fresh idea, insight, or touch am I bringing to this effect? How does this advance the general plot of my act or show? How do I use this trick to sell myself?

In a sense, these are aesthetic choices that will determine every other decision in creating a routine...classic or otherwise. I think the beauty of many classic effects is that they lend themselves so well to differing interpretations. Knowing WHY I am doing something helps give specific and sometimes unique structure and form to what might otherwise be a generic piece.

As Jonathan mentions above, finding a reason or a 'hook' that will make an audience 'care' is an important part of the WHY.

Regards-JNeal

God give me the eyes of a layman so that I can appreciate the effects as a layman does.