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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts 
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So I present this to the mercy of the Café....
A very good friend of mine who is a magician was in talks with a very large fair here in the Northwest to do a 10 day run. I was contacted about it as well, but due to other obligations I could not fulfill all 10 days. According to my friend, the fair bookers were heavily leaning towards him getting the contract. This was also at a very fair price for a 10 day run (no pun intended). It was a great gig....UNTIL....he was told by the fair people that they had found an illusionist from out of town who would do three shows a day for a whopping 500 or 550 dollars a day. A full illusion show with at least 7 grand illusions for less than 200 bucks a pop! Talk about undercutting the market! Should I be really upset about this? Have any of you guys been in a similiar situation when some weasel offers a show for 90% off the market value? Did you do or say anything about it? I have no doubt that the fair will be gravely disappointed by this guy who ever he is. I am sure having knock off prices equates to having a show full of knock off props....lol. Sorry for the rant, and thanks for giving me an avenue to vent! Maybe I shouldn't be so mad, but my good friend and fellow Café member was royally screwed over by this guy. |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
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Work is work in a free market. The guy who got the show has as much right to feed his family as your friend does. And that doesn't make him a weasel.
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts
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The illusion market is a lot different than your birthday party market. I understand that may be a lot of money for some venues, but not for a full production illusion show. Minimum should be 1500 a day. That covers the cost of a crew, sound and lights, and wear and tear on tens of thousands of dollars in props. So when he comes in and undercuts everyone by an obscene amount....that does make him a weasel.
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Pakar Ilusi Inner circle 5777 Posts
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Or just a really desperate Magician.
I know quite a few of those... 
"Dreams aren't a matter of Chance but a matter of Choice." -DC-
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-06 23:25, w_s_anderson wrote: It's called capitalism my friend. Get over it and get used to it; everyone has the right to make a living in my country. Or move to some socialist place where they make rules on what you can and can't do. Posted: Jul 7, 2011 12:29am PS....if the guy is as bad as you suggest he might be, then the folks at the Fair who hired him, ie., the free market, will will figure it out and the guy won't be able to get work out of it. So relax and let it play ..... ;-)
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts
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What country are YOU from BOB? I have spent way too many years overseas fighting the enemies of my country to want to move somewhere else. I rather enjoy MY country. Your opinion obviously shows that you are not a working professional so your insight is really not needed in this conversation. This is for the full time performers ok. What this guy is doing is no different than all skilled labor jobs, or skilled tech jobs being outsourced. Here is a guy who was going to get booked for the going rate just as it should be, and some WEASEL comes along and offers to do it for far less.
What you are saying is that you would not be if oh lets say you are 45 years old, married, and have 4 kids. You work for a salary and get paid 75,000 a year. Then some kid right out of college comes along and tells your boss that he could do your job for 35,000 a year....after all it's a free market right? Now you lose your job to this kid. Congratulations BOB, have fun providing for your family. As much as I would like to relax on this issue and "let it play." It's too late anyhow. A very good magician lost out because somebody undercut the market "outsourced themselves" and now has hurt the market for the rest of the magicians. Now every year this venue is going to expect to get a magician for what this Weasel charged. |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-07 01:02, w_s_anderson wrote: I've earned the right to be buried at Arlington my friend, so back off on your military prowess crap OK? USAF, '67- 71. And I'm a retired professional who earned everything by hard work and competing with the young folks you are so afraid of. You're beginning to sound like a liberal democrat who wants a union to protect you, a-a-ay? Once again, relax your gonads and let the free market work. You're far to harsh on your fellow working man. ;-)
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts
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LOL....who said anything about being being afraid of the young folks....I am still a young folk. That was only a "scenario." "Military Prowess" Did I say or reference any of that? NOPE, I just mentioned that unlike you had suggested, I have no inclination to leave this country and gave a reason as to why. Not once did I identify my branch, years served, or where I had the right to be buried ;-) I am not at all to harsh on the fellow working man, I am just looking out for a professional working magician. He makes his living in this business. I get the "free market," however this is a very small market. A market so small that the actions of one will negatively impact many.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts
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I've been a full-timer for nearly 30 of the nearly 50 years that I have been doing magic. I am qualified to speak on such matters.
I have experienced the same under-cutting in the venues where I have worked. This included birthday parties, restaurants, bars, nightclubs, corporate show, festivals, and other venues too numerous to mention. I have been undercut by magicians who had no expenses due to still living with their parents. I have been undercut by newbies who were ignorant to the market. I have been undercut by magicians who were too lazy to find their own place, preferring "tested" turf. I have been undercut by magicians because there are simply some clients who only think of the selling price, and not of the associated value. It makes me mad as hell. But you know what? There isn't a d*** thing I can do about it. Sure, I can go off and lick my wounds, but there has to be a self-imposed limit to that. The best thing I've ever done is realize that cream always rises to the top, and do everything in my power to make sure I'm better than the other guy. The gig may be gone this year, but hopefully the client is savvy enough to know that the money they spend this year netted them nothing in the end. You lose some, but you retain much more, as long as you focus on the route and not the obstacle. I'm with Bob on this. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Bob1Dog Inner circle Wife: It's me or this houseful of 1159 Posts
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Why do you continue to seek acceptance of your premise that working magicians must conform to your standards? The MARKET will determine that. Really! Trust me. Once again, get over it my friend, the world is a lot larger than you are. When you gain my life experience, you will understand more, of that I'm certain.
Quote:
On 2011-07-07 01:41, Michael Baker wrote: Couldn't have said it better Michael!
What if the Hokey Pokey really IS what it's all about?
My neighbor rang my doorbell at 2:30 a.m. this morning, can you believe that, 2:30 a.m.!? Lucky for him I was still up playing my drums. |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts
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It just sucks. Thanks for your insight Michael. Instead of licking your wounds...I say you create some wounds...LOL. (Just Kidding, for those who would take that as serious) Guys like that are no different than the builders who rip off a prop and sell it for thousands of dollars cheaper than the authorized builder/dealer makes. I could understand the newbie's, the ignorants, the kids living with parents, and the cheap client only caring about the price. This is a guy with a full stage show though. He should know better, or at least have some self respect.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts
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It can't be much of a stage show. The numbers just don't add up.
"create some wounds"... Ha!! Just be content in the knowledge that ANYONE can book a show... ONCE.
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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w_s_anderson Inner circle The United States 1226 Posts
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Alright....it looks like it's me v.s. two old timers!!
Bob, I am not seeking acceptance. To be honest I think it is just you, Michael, and myself reading this. This isn't even about me. If you read the very first post you will see that I was venting over the fact that my good friend was hijacked by someone undercutting him. I don't have standards that I feel everyone must conform to, but I do have a right to be mad. Look at Michael, he has been getting undercut for 30 years and he still gets mad. As far as the world being larger than I am....this post was not about me it was about my friend. I am fully aware how large this world is, I am also aware of how small it can be.....with your life experience you should understand that.
Quote:
On 2011-07-07 02:00, Michael Baker wrote: I was thinking the same thing! Quote:
On 2011-07-07 02:00, Michael Baker wrote: HAHAHA!!! So true. |
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Illucifer Inner circle 1403 Posts
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Bob is 100% right. You are free to charge anything you like in our market system. Others may not like it, but the fact is, if simply left alone, the market will correct itself. This guy will either not be making enough to support what he's doing and have to move on, or the employer will get exactly what they've paid for, in which case they'll drop him for something better.
We have the greatest system on earth. Nowhere else can one pursue his/her dreams unfettered as they can in America, though I fear the tide may be turning if something is not done about it soon.
It's all in the reflexes.
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AllAboutMagic Veteran user California 333 Posts
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WOW.....this sounds a little heated, though not nearly as bad as some of the current threads in the grand illusions section...lol. I hope y'all don't mind a girl barging in on you. I am going to have to side with w_s_anderson on this one and for a very specific reason. The magician I work with was going to get booked on a cruise through an agent. There were a lot of negotiations going on because he had some big props and he wanted to take me and another member of his crew. It was a 3 month job and we had turned down some other big offers when it looked as though everything was going to go forward. Well, just as things were being finalized the gig was swept from under us by another guy who was charging a lot less than we were. Is that bad....not necessarily....but we did lose on a cruise gig as well as the opportunity for other gigs we previously had to turn down. Here is the worst part. The agent later told us that the guy they hired was so bad the ship ended his contract early and paid him in full! Some on here may know who I am talking about. Not only did that happen, but the agent said the guys who booked him said they would never book another magician again. Free Market aside people do get what they pay for, but the impact could be far more reaching than just someone losing a gig.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-07 02:06, w_s_anderson wrote: That would be "old fart", thank you very much!
Quote:
On 2011-07-07 02:21, AllAboutMagic wrote: Hi, I would address you by name, but I don't know it.
I can understand your empathy for those who lose a gig to a cheaper act. However, in spite of the loss of income, opportunities, etc., there still is nothing to be done in a retroactive manner. This leaves waiting for the dust to settle on the current situation, and seeing what pieces are left to be picked up, or adopting preventive measures. In regard to the former, it is sometimes possible to recover the gig the following year, assuming the cheap act fails miserably and the client understands the root cause, and doesn't lump all magic acts together. In the event the client develops a cold shoulder, as you mentioned, sure it dilutes and pollutes the turf. But such morons that cause these things tend to have short-lived careers. That's the silver lining. Regarding the latter, preventive measures, perhaps a change in strategy is in order to secure a gig without the worry of cutthroats, bottom-feeders, and pirates. I'm sure I don't have all the answers, but it seems to me that there should be sales techniques that make you more desirable than them. I set goals for myself years ago that I would posture myself in certain ways that would make the client want to book me, Michael Baker, instead of wanting "a magician". Doesn't always work, but it is a pretty good tactic to keep in mind. In regard to losing other opportunities, in addition to losing the one to the cheaper act, anytime that has happened to me, when I thought back on it, the only person really to blame was myself. Getting burned like this often enough teaches you the real meaning of those proverbs such as not putting all your eggs into one basket. When you have two potential gigs, keep them both on the wire in negotiation as long as you can... hopefully until you have a commitment (in writing) from one of them. Something about burning bridges comes to mind. Cutting one loose before you have the deal inked on the other is taking a gamble. The minute you take that gamble, you have to be ready to accept the outcome. The clients have choices they can exercise. It is likely they will fill the gig. There is only one of YOU. The more possibilities you cut off, the fewer you have left to rely on. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2393 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-06 22:25, w_s_anderson wrote: You are probably right about this but not necessarily. Maybe this is a young guy, new to the business, and is trying to get his name out there. After 10 days and a $6,000 pay check he can write on his web page, “Headliner and star of the xyz Fair in 2011.” Maybe he’ll get a video to post on his web site and video testimonials from audience members. Maybe this guy is a genius. Or maybe not. I’ve been in this business 35 years and have seen many come along and act as if they are the new David Copperfield, and act as if money is no object in their decision making, only to ‘disappear’ from the magic scene after a few years, probably with a large debt! On the other hand I’ve seen many young guys succeed and greatly surpass my accomplishments. Time is the fairest judge of a person’s character.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-07 02:06, w_s_anderson wrote: Wrong. I think the poor economy brings out the worst in people. Planners who ordinarily would want "only the best" are now looking to trim the budget any way they can. Hungry entertainers can get desperate. Poor form all around. Hell, they're stealing copper right off the poles in Ohio! Doesn't make any of it right, and weasel is not a bad term- better I 'spect than scab... So, add one "old guy" (I prefer "wise man") to your side, ws... Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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MrPrestoHypno Regular user 190 Posts
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I have had that happen to me, where I thought I was going to get a show only to be severely undercut by someone else, but later I was told by an audience member that was the crappiest show they have ever seen. They paid for what they got.
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Michael Baker Eternal Order Near a river in the Midwest 11172 Posts
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Quote:
On 2011-07-07 08:57, MrPrestoHypno wrote: They paid for what they bought. I suspect some of us have had the morbid pleasure of experiencing that follow-up info. I know I have. I was undercut on a gig once, and was also later told that the performer used my name ONSTAGE in a derogatory manner!! I was told this by two different friends who were at the show, and they did not know each other. I was also told that the show sucked and that one lady from the audience openly told this hack magician that he should just pack up his stuff and get off the stage. Hearing that felt better than if I'd said it to him myself.
I'm not sure we here are doing battle with each other. "Vs" doesn't apply (even if I am an old fart). This is a topic that opens dialogue. That's good! Anyone who performs often enough will experience this sort of thing. Anyone who relies on magic to make ends meet will feel the anger, frustration, and fear for loss of income when it happens. Anyone who relies on magic to make ends meet, can also reach a point where they might do something in the name of desperation in order to survive. But that doesn't mean that every magician that snipes a gig is doing so out of desperation. I actually think that most of the time they are among the class of bottom feeders. Having worked in nightclubs long enough, I've seen the same sort of thing happen among musicians. I've seen musicians play all night long for twenty five bucks a man just in an attempt to get themselves on the map. Often, these were guys that had full time day jobs. The only real solution that I see is something I mentioned earlier. We each need to do what we can to rise above the competition. When our work is in demand because we are "Michael Baker", or "Scott Anderson", or whoever, then this type of aggravation will disappear. It will, at least for each of us who elevates ourselves. The bad guys won't go away, but it will then be someone else's battle to wage. It's probably the price to be paid. Getting to the top requires climbing the hill. ~michael
~michael baker
The Magic Company |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » On the topic of ethics, here is another issue. Your thoughts ... (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Jul 7, 2011 02:25 am 
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