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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Tricky business » » Murder by magic bu cris Johnson (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JJJustice
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Enterprise, AL
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Comments that my statements "have an aroma", or insinuating that I'm purposefully hiding salient facts are an assault on my character... Not an opinion on the substance of my review. My post regarding how long you've been in the business was punctuated with a question mark... Not a declarative statement. The fact that you've been successful and able to support your family for so long puts you in that category I mention at the end of my last post: among those for whom I have the utmost respect and highest admiration.
Aren't they all "sales pitches?". A website promising to be "the most amazing demonstration of hypnosis you will eve see" may be considered a sales pitch by some. In the end, if it's worth it to the individual consumer, then the performer, salesman, or company delivered. I have every confidence that the Murder by Magic Show will have multiple runs, because people have had to be turned away and told to be on the lookout for the next date... Any show beyond the upcoming one is pure profit for me... Does that not make it worth it?
Dannydoyle
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Obviously your exuberance knows no bounds. Great. Good for you. You STILL come across as a shill. PERIOD.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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Los Angeles, CA
670 Posts

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JJ, your initial comment did a great job of answering the question of the original post. Your follow-up posts did an even better job of backing up your claims. Welcome to the Magic Café!

Unfortunately, this thread serves as a perfect example of why more people don't participate in these forums. In the Tricky Business forum you find the same dozen or so people participating in these discussions. Is it any wonder why more people don't participate?

This is supposed to be about magicians helping magicians, but when someone tries to answer a question in an honest and helpful way, the character of that person gets attacked. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. Differing opinions should be respected, and it should be quite easy to do so by simply respecting your fellow human being.

Hopefully, this comment doesn't fall on deaf ears.

Remaining hopeful,

Lou Serrano
Dannydoyle
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OH no differing opinions don't get allowed Lou. We have to "help". What a load.

It is a sales pitch and that is that. At least admit it. I said it is a sales pitch. Big deal. Is that REALLY that insulting?

Nobody attacked charetor. What I questioned was the claims. AND TURNS OUT I WAS RIGHT! If he would have mentioned hey I am just a guy who does this once in a while and hope some day to run full time then cool. But look at the initial post. Then look at what he ended up saying. Tell me it is the same thing.

Yea we need to cheerlead every idea that comes out. That is "helping"? Everyone just buys everything anyone cares to put out without even thinking about it for a second? Seems like magicians helping other marketing guru types hawk crap. Oh yea I forgot then get mad when someone has an opinion that is different.

Do you read what you write? I am SO SICK of the idea that maybe things are not quite what they seem , but that does nto automaticaly make them bad.

JJ do what you will. I NEVER told you not to. You concede that you came across as a shill. This was what I was saying. But you have to admit that some of the claims seem to be a bit out there and need some looking into. Is that such a horrible position?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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I think JJ's posts came from the heart. I respect that he took a position and he aired his opinion. I don't believe JJ's follow up posts said anything that contradicted his initial post.

I believe everyone can get their message across without getting angry, and without belittling others.

Wishing you all much success!

Lou Serrano
Dannydoyle
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Oh Lou I never said he contradicted anything. I do say he filled in the gaps a bit with some details that are quite important don't you think?

Oh never mind. Yea rah rah rah everyone is great and buy any piece of crap anyone feels the need to throw together. NOBODY ever makes a bad product or just tries to sell things to people. Feel better now?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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Quote:
On 2011-08-08 16:39, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh never mind. Yea rah rah rah everyone is great and buy any piece of crap anyone feels the need to throw together. NOBODY ever makes a bad product or just tries to sell things to people. Feel better now?


If this isn't belittling, I don't know what is.

Lou Serrano
Dannydoyle
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Good eye.

Let me be serious to make the point though. A 6 year old child can speak from the heart, does that make the point valid? It is possible (Lets not say in this case, but it is "possible".) that one can speak from the heart and make the case and not contradict themselves and simply not have enough experience to really know what they are talking about isn't it?

It is "possible" that just not every idea that comes across the bow is worthy of praise, in spite of the title of the forum isn't it?

Are others allowed to NOT agree? When they don't we get badgered by the SAME people! What suprises you about lashing back in frustration?

Serously if your position is that every idea has merit, then cool. But please do not try to hold me to that standard fair enough? I see some REALLY strange claims in that sales pitch about doing huge numbers of shows yet still having time to get all this together to sell. I find some of those claims to be suspect. What is wrong with that? Why is questioning things so bad?

If you don't like the manner in which it is done, then oh well. We are who we are. Get over it. I have not told you to change now have I? Again I would ask the same of you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
lou serrano
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670 Posts

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Danny,

I completely respect your views and opinions. From time to time I agree with the things you say. I think your views come from experience, and that holds a lot of weight in my book.

I'm all for "questioning"; I'm not for "attacking". Attacks can take many forms, from outright name calling to belittling another person. That's my view, and although I wish more people took my stance, I won't condemn others for having a different way of expressing themselves. (Although, I must admit, I'm less inclined to listen to the message if I don't like the way the message is wrapped. To each his own.)

I can't imagine every marketing product that is released these days is a real winner. Questioning, analyzing, and discussing these items that are being sold is a good thing. One thing to keep is mind is that what might be great for me and you may not be a match for another person, and vice versa.

I know nothing about Cris Johnson or his product. I doubt his product would be a good match for me, since I create my own programs and market my own services. That’s not to say it wouldn’t be a great fit for someone else. If JJ Justice or anyone else has gotten value out of using this product, then more power to them. I wish them continued success.

As far as changing who you are, I’m not asking anything of you. I simply posted MY view about respect for others, and why I believe there are so few people contributing to these discussions.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano
LVMagicAL
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Quote:
On 2011-08-08 17:30, lou serrano wrote:
Danny,

I simply posted MY view about respect for others, and why I believe there are so few people contributing to these discussions.

Respectfully,

Lou Serrano


You're absolutely right, Lou. That's the primary reason I don't offer up my comments on a more frequent basis. It's just not worth the headaches.
Blindside785
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Olympia, WA
4256 Posts

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I'll be investing in this one Smile
G. Batson
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Thanks for saving us Danny....yet again. I have never seen anyone who needs so badly to always be right.
Dannydoyle
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Here is the deal though. IT IS AN OPINION!!!!!!! NOBODY IS RIGHT AND NOBODY IS WRONG!!!!!!

Don't you get that? Are you not bright enough to know that others can have an opinion? Certainly others are entitled to one. Starrpower and I have one, and you have one and JJ has one and others have one. ALL OF THEM RIGHT ABOUT HOW THIS WORKS FOR THEM! The problem comes in when people get offended that there is an opinion CONTRARY to their own. Then they start posting defensively and it goes downhill.

Yea I have to always be right. Take your head out of wherever it is and try living in reality.

Hey Lou, where does his attack on ME rate on your scale of how to be civil?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Futureal
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Too much caffeine.
KC Cameron
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Raleigh, North Carolina
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Danny,

It is not so much what you wrote, but the way you chose to write it. Extremely aggressive and condescending. Your opinions are of value IF one can get past the bluster.

Danny, you are an accomplished magician, be gracious you managed to get a magic education that few living have. Pass it on.
Starrpower
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Danny has strong opinions, but at the risk of coming off as a brown-nose, let me say he is one of the few people here whose posts I read very carefully. The trouble is we rarely know the background of people who post here. It is not an level playing field; some people know far more, and some know almost nothing yet throw advice around as if they are experts. Although Danny rarely discusses his own background, I am familiar with his training. I am also familiar with some of the venues he has secured long-term work at, and I am very impressed. So while he may have strong opinions, he's earned them and has the war scars to prove it.
Cris Johnson
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Niagara Falls, NY
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I was told of this thread by a friend of mine. I will only respond once, that's it.

First of all, James was not asked by me to contribute or "shill" my product. We are not "in cahoots" or anything. The fact that he chose to praise my product with his first post was very flattering.

Now to clear up a few things by Danny Doyle. (And once again, I AM too busy to get into a ****ing match with him or others like him).

First, I never claimed I made $500K per year, so get your freakin' facts straight. In my blog and other areas, I am honest about my earnings - a little over $100K per year. Unlike many magicians, I choose not to exaggerate my earnings.

Second, I chose to release this product because some magicians have contacted me after reading my blog and wanted to buy versions of some of the shows after looking at my websites. I then realized that if some honest folks were approaching me, it stands to reason that others would see the concept and steal it.

So I put it out to protect the fact that I developed the concept. A friend in Texas (no, it wasn't Cody Fisher) helped a little but, but most of this is MY baby.

Additionally, I'm exhausted. Really tired. I'm looking to get off the road and do more clinical hypnosis. The road is tiring and while I love performing, I am tired of the travel. My gameplan is to reduce (not eliminate) my show schedule. Do more hypnosis, spend more time with my wife and less in hotels.

Also, while I do like some corporate clients I've worked with, the corporate realm is not my primary passion - schools are, so I felt I could release the Murder show, as I affectionately call it.

I'd encourage anyone on the Café who decides to take shots at anyone's character based on the fact that they need to tear down a product they've never laid eyes on tells me all I need to know about Dannydoyle and others like him.

Some people on the Café are wonderful. However in most of my interactions, most of the Café people I have interacted with are small, petty people.

If Danydoyle and others like him are suspicious of the product, don't buy it. Product sales make up about 5-6% of my annual income. I do it because I enjoy writing and I'll never write the great american novel, so I release products. Some like them, others don't.

If you enjoy it, great. I appreciate it. If not, frankly, I don't give a rat's ass. The stuff works for me. My clients like it.

As I said, this will be my one and only response. If I upset anyone like Dannydoyle, too frickin' bad.

- Cris
Cris Johnson, BCH, CI, CT.NLP

www.ProfessionalMagicProducts.com
Dannydoyle
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Wow lots of assumptios and personal shots, and you expext no response? Well since you obviously have the desire for the attention lets give it to you shall we? Here is from your web site, posted here on the first post of the thread.

On average, I earn about $1850 for a one hour performance of “Murder By Magic.” I’ve occasionally done shows in the $800 range 30 minutes or so away from my house for small groups of people. Quite often, I book the show for the healthy fee of $2495.

In fact, I recently booked the “Murder By Magic” show for the fee of $2495…and then a week later, someone from another company in the same city called me to tell me they had heard about the show from the first company…he then also booked it for the same fee!

Now I know that there are corporate magicians and mentalists out there who command a LOT more than that for a one hour show in the corporate market, but despite performing 250 shows per year (many of them in the corporate market), I have not fully immersed myself into the corporate market.

You say "on average I earn $1850 for a one hour performance". Ok cool lets use the 'average' you claim so readily. Then you go to state that you do 250 shows a year AND THAT IS NOT YOUR PRIMARY FOCUS! So if we just use the "average" you so readily claim and multiply that by the 250 shows you say you do (even though you have not fully imursed yourself in that market.) we come up with $462,500! Now that does not include your money from other sources such as the schools. Why are you so upset with me for simply running the numbers THAT YOU PROVIDE?

Others like me? Seriously? Those who bother to look at the claims made by those who choose to purchase those get rich quick type of web pages? Guys like me who simply want to make certain the claims made by the product developers are real claims and not crap? Hmmmm seems like you are the one upset here not I. I am simply wondering if the claims hold up when light is shined on them is all.

I am with you 100% that if an honest person will approach you, a dishonest one will definately try to get over on you. Good for you for taking initiative and protecting yourself. Smart. BUT you are angry with me for running numbers you provided. Maybe you could say that you were not quite as clear as you needed to be huh?

Getting off the road? Great and admirable goal no doubt.

Now in reality JJ was the one who said he probably looked like a shill, and read his posts he does. His first post and suddenly he is full force endorcing this? Yea I am the one who is out of line LOL.

So before you get all ruffled, and rumpled just step back and look for a second at how things appear from another point of view. Give it a shot.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Donald Dunphy
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I guess I read the info in the marketing copy differently.

Yes, there were some confusing areas. Such as when he stated that he does many shows for the corporate market, and then also says he hasn't fully immersed himself in that market.

I never calculated his annual income at the level that others have, from reading other parts of his copy. I calculated his income for that specific show at a certain average. But I never assumed that all 250 of his annual shows were that specific show. He never really said how many of his annual shows were his "Murder by Magic" show (at that average level for that specific show).

$100K / 250 shows = $400 average per show.

I would guess that he does some shows for as low as $200, and maybe some shows for $1000+. For selling the product, he was focusing more on the shows he sells for $1000+ (and by tipping the fact that he did some local "murder by magic" shows for $800, he indicates that some of the bigger paydays, such as $2495, might include travel or multiple shows). Lots of performers "celebrate" their big paydays. That doesn't mean they don't have smaller paydays. Often performers have a few big paydays, and lots and lots of smaller paydays.

BTW, I know of some performers who work birthdays, daycares, schools, corporate, etc. They can tell you their average income per show in a certain market. But that isn't their average income per show, for all of their annual shows combined.

- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
Donald Dunphy
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P.S. I decided it might be fun to play with averages.

If a performer did 1 show at $2500 each, and 10 shows at $200 each, then that totals $4500. Divide that by 11 shows, and you get $409 average per show. So, that average shows the porportion of smaller shows to bigger shows.

I certainly wouldn't call 1 show out of 11 shows as doing "many shows" for that fee. However, I'm sure that performers like to focus on that one big payday, and celebrate it.

Multiply 11 x 23, and you get 253 (possible # of annual shows).

Multiply $409 (per show) x 253 (# of annual shows), and you get $103,477 (possible annual income). Again, this is to keep with the $100,000 annual income, and 250 annual shows, as averages.

A person could do 23 shows at $2500, and 230 shows at $200, and get $103,500. And their average pay per show would only be about $409.

For some, doing 23 shows a year at $2500 would be seen as "many" of that type of big show. But yet, in the grand scheme of doing 253 shows per year, perhaps it isn't.

In my averages calculations, I went very high on the corporate paydays ($2500 for every show) and very low on the other paydays ($200 per show). I went for extremes, and two fee levels only.

Some performers charge about $200 for daycare shows. And some performers do 4 school shows in a day, for $800 total (again, $200 per show).

Again, this is just for fun. It's more likely that performers will have a wider variety of fees in between $200 and $2500.
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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